John Cole has a post entitled The Reaction to Immigration which I enjoyed.
I really have not paid too much attention to the immigration bill, and anything with the handprints of Kennedy and Bush is probably something that is flawed in so many ways it is hard to count, but I have to admit, what I am really enjoying is the reaction from the 28%ers. Hugh Hewitt and Dean Barnett are going to explode any time now, and Michelle Malkin is equally volcanic (really, just go to the top and scroll). Their readers and echo chorus are in a predictable lather, as well.
Bush and the last few congresses have betrayed every principle conservatives ever stood for, and these folks were there with pom-poms the whole ride, degrading the debate and attacking anyone who dared to disagree with Bush. These are the folks who pushed Schiavo, these are the folks who said little to nothing over the hideous bankruptcy bill, these are the folks who told us all to STFU and let Bush lead us in the debacle in Iraq, these are the folks who insist that torture and invasive surveillance are first order conservative principles. I could list 100 more things, but why bother?
And now their ox has been gored, and they are freaking out.
Immigration doesn’t get me too excited, probably because I haven’t been personally been harmed to any great extent and because the immigrants I have met very often seem to be stand up people. If they have violated the law, it strikes me as being closer to the traffic violation end of the spectrum and further from the violent crime side of things. It’s malum prohibitum and not malum in se. It seems like a practical problem with practical, negotiable solutions. But, I suspect the core of the 28% of folks who still support Bush don’t see it this way. I think it’s an emotional issue for them and the fact that they’re being betrayed by their Commander in Chief stings them bitterly.
I haven’t read the specifics but heard some of the proposals on TV. One of them was to have the illegals pay a $5,000 “fine”, apparently as a path to citizenship. This seems pretty dumb, really. I figured that might bring $5-10 billion in to the treasury. When you consider the size of the budget and the things we spend money on, that isn’t a huge sum. But it would start each immigrant off in a nice hole they would have to dig out of, with the increased chance they will have to lean on local aid resources. Plus, none of the rest of us had to pay that when we or our families came here.
I’m pretty sure my ancestors just took what they wanted when they came over here; local laws be damned.
I’ll post one more time .I explained this bill in depth but it did not post and I’m not gonna waste another hour laying it out.
I do not support Bush and do not support this legislation.It’s a joke and any so called enforcement or “triggers” will never be implemented.I heard the same line of BS in 1986 about enforcement.We had three million illegals then now we have between 12 and 20 million.The amnesty did not work then and it won’t work now!I haven’t ran into anyone at the coffee shop,grocery,main street or anywhere that supports this legislation and there all mainly Democrats like myself.
Pelosi and Rahm Emmanual say they need around 70 Republican votes for this(if it passes the Senate) probably because a lot of new consevative Dems like Ellsworth who ran anti illegal immigration campaigns will hear a ear full this weekend by phone and email about this nonsensical legislation.
The cost of this legislation will be enormous.Both the left and the right have problems with this bill and any amendments to it could cause it to lose a lot of support as stated last night on PBS Washington Week Senator Cornyn(R) Texas who worked behind closed doors with others on this and helped broker the deal now says he will not support it.Obama has problems with it also.
Bringing in 400,000 guest workers each and every year will have a very negative impact on the working poor,low wage earners and poverty in general and further depress wages of these people because they will be competing mainly with low skilled under educated immigrants.I wonder if we’ll hear John Edwards and his two America’s stump speech speak about that?He always claims to want to help the poor as do most of the Democratic Presidential candidates.
Great point #2, Doug. Bravo.
However, I agree with Phillip’s points. Annother useless, costly, bill.
I have visited Berlin many times over the years.I have also spent considerable time in France,where entire Parisian suburbs( St Denis for example) are Islam and are pushing to install Islamic law in these areas and do away with French civil law.We see the same tendancies in the USA, still very isolated, with taxi drivers in Minneapolis refusing to pick up certain people,or do certain things, based on Islamic moral grounds( and they point to the fact that pharmacists in some areas dont have to fill perscriptions they object to morally and Islam wants equal treatment in a democracy) .The Germans brought in Turkish guest workers after ww2 and until about 1972,when the program was ended.The specification was that they would work as long as Germany had a labor shortage and then they would go back to Turkey,all willingly. On any nice Sunday afternoon there is always a huge Turkish picknic atmosphere on the grounds around the German Parliament building in Berlin.Im not anti-immigrant,but all we have to do is point out that a guest worker program is no different than just having immigrants cross the border at will since we do not have the will to differentiate between legal and illegal, especially with so many pro-Hispanic advocacy groups deliberately blurring the legal-illegal line in favor of just ‘immigrants’classificiation. Any kind of guest worker program is going to be permanent immigration, and because of how our system functions, it means family,including extended family will also come in to join those already here, and then extended family of extended family eventually. We already have a process of immigration through the usual channels and its quite liberal. The history of special work visas for high tech ( but low paying relatively ) also can become permanent immigration add-on,again because once in this country, we can’t seem to find,or want to find people. Conservavtive republicans have tried to diminish government and they have suceeded in a harmful way..There are few left to process immigrants,to enforce the borders,and the public presentation of a law vs the intent of the law by advocacy groups makes the law difficult to understand or predict. The rule of thumb seems to be no matter what classification a non-citizen is given as he enters the USA, if he wants to stay he will find a way to stay, and he won’t be found. I guess this is why I generally agree with the conservative republican position on this.. and I gulp as I say that.Control the borders first,and all immigration should be through the front door.Also when immigration/border security bills are proposed and discussed be more forthcoming with what the bill actually will do and not do. And will the bill be funded to a point it can function as intended? If not, DONT pass it..We just can’t ever get beyond the political posturing on so many issues,and then we wonder why so much of government doesnt work.
First off, I don’t think this is a zero-sum game. When an immigrant comes into the country, that doesn’t necessarily mean that he is going to take resources that would otherwise go to an American. If immigrants are generating more resources than they consume, it’s a net positive to the economy. The next step is the difficult task of figuring out how best to distribute the resources contributed.
Obviously, it’s a bad situation if an immigrant comes in, generates a bunch of resources that go to an employer, leaves an existing American worker with less than he had before and leaves the immigrant with not quite enough to get by so that he is relying on government assistance.
Secondly, we want a system where the immigrant is assimilated to American culture. We don’t necessarily need them to be clones of Ward & June Cleaver, but we need them to adopt certain cultural imperatives with respect to liberty and democracy. (I’d note, by the way, that the whole business of religious objections by pharmacists is decidedly not limited to Muslim immigrants.)
To summarize: #1 Try to make sure immigrants are contributing more than they take; #2 Distribute the contributions equitably; and #3 Assimilate the immigrants. Simple, right?
Doug –
I don’t have any problem with immigrants.
I have a BIG problem with criminal aliens.
I have a related problem with conflating the two terms.
I think the distinction is important, and needs to be made.
The key question seems to be whether the United States should be a sovereign nation with control over its borders, or whether anyone should be able to wander in and enjoy all the benefits of citizenship.
I think immigrants have been of great benefit to this nation. Criminal aliens? Not so much.
They’re only criminals because we’ve defined them as such, not because of anything inherently bad they’ve done. Just as an example – rapists = always bad, law or no law. Speeders = only bad because the law says you have to stay under a certain speed limit. Illegal immigrants fall into the latter category. Change the law, *presto* no longer criminals. No longer bad.
I don’t know about your ancestors, but I’m fairly certain that my ancestors came over here and did things that were not at all pleasing to the local residents of the time.
That’s not to say we shouldn’t have immigration policy or enforce it, only to say we should define a rational immigration policy that is practically enforceable — we shouldn’t just make a fetish of enforcing laws for their own sake. If you think our current system is rational and enforceable, then taking an unmovable position with respect to those who have broken those laws makes sense. I, however, don’t think we have a rational and enforceable system at present.
Assimilation should be the goal.This is the great success story of american public schools during 19th and 20th century: assimilation of immigrants
What is alarming is that there is a growing Hispanic lobby that contends Hispanics shouldnt have to learn English, shouldn’t have to be ‘legal’ because there is no such status as ‘illegal’.Along with that we have the ‘guest worker’ lobby who want just cheap labor and a special status group of people with lesser rights assumed.
Doug,
This piece of junk legislation is not enforceable and will not be enforced. To start with the 400,000 guest workers allowed to come in each and every year will be allowed to to stay two years then must return home for one year.This will never be enforced!If this government can not enforce current immigration laws they will never be able to enforce this.it won’t happen.
All these “triggers” will have loop holes and can be waived just like the chain migration part of this legislation which only allows spouse and children no extended family which has some on the left up in arms and calling this unacceptable along with the points based part of the legislation.The bill states this part of the legislation can be waived for humanitarian resons.
It is my understanding they just finished writing this thing last night and it will be close to 1000 pgs.Most Senators did not even read last years bill before passing it 700pgs.Harru Reid wants to try to push this thing through this week so it can’t be debated much and it’s contents exposed which would cause both Senators from the left and right to not support it.
Any legislation that grants the creation of a new Z visa and grants immediate legal status although not yet citizenship is a amnesty no matter how you slice it.It rewards millions of people for breaking our immigration law by illegally crossing our border and allows them to in effect cut in front of people abroad who have been trying to immigrate here legally.
Just because my country shares a border with a corupt incompetent government which can not provide a decent living for it’s citizens does not give that country the right to use my country as a safety valve to ship it’s poverty too!
The illegal immigrant population is estimated to have a dropout rate of 60%.The average completed edacation grade of illegal immigrants is 7th.We have enough unfortunate legal cicitzens in our country who need our assistance without adding more working poor to their ranks and those people are who we need to be helping not another countries citizens.
The cost of this legislation will be enormous.The Heritage Foundations Robert Rector has already been crunching the numbers and testified last week.
On This Week with George stephnopolous Speaker Pelosi was aked if she would pressure freshman coservative Democrats to support this legislation they cut to campaign commercials of Ellsworth and Shuler saying tough on illegal immigration and no amnesty the Speaker responded this bill is not amnesty.If this bill passes the Senate and Ellsworth votes for it in the House he’s done!The guy already said that’s the issue he hears about most from 8th district constituents in a piece he had in the local paper.I’ve lived in the 8th district all my life and the majority of folks will not support this. You can count on that!
Doug –
We have a fundamental disagreement. I think that coming into this country illegally is, in fact, inherently bad.
I don’t see how you can have a rational immigration policy that does not acknowledge that premise – or how our current practice of yelling ‘allee allee in free!’ every so often is working to our benefit.
I don’t think the experience of colonial times (while interesting in its own right) offers much to inform the current debate. Good straw man, though.
Of course, reading:
makes me wonder how you’d feel about people driving down your street at 120 mph. After all, its not inherently bad – just bad because the law says so!
[We are in agreement that the concepts of good/bad and legal/illegal don’t line up as neatly as we would like them to – but I don’t either speeders or criminal aliens are good examples of a disconnect in this area.]
I suspect that our current policies are more rational than many pundits want to acknowledge – the problem is that enforcement has been a not-funny joke for far too long.
Maybe 25 mph is a good speed limit for your street – maybe that’s the actual limit. But if no one acts to stop folks blowing by at 120, the letter of the law doesn’t matter much in that case, does it?
Parker,
Well, you can always go join the Minutemen down in Arizona.
Traveling at 120 mph is not inherently bad. It’s just that speed needs to be regulated because the speed can be dangerous near other people and on roads not built to accomodate those speeds. Rape and murder are never going to be good, no matter the context.
Immigration is more like speeding than it is like rape. In some contexts, absolutely it’s bad — too many immigrants, immigrants who don’t contribute much to society. But it’s a matter of calibration, not a matter of absolute right and wrong.
Just running with your side note, I don’t think he was saying that. I think the point was that the increased religious liberties that Christans are wanting (the pharmacists) is opening the door for more religious liberties for Muslems (the taxi drivers).
Point being, if Christians get miffed at the Muslem taxi driver using his religion to dictate his job decisions, then they either need to stop saying it is ok for Christain pharmacists to do the same OR be cool with both.
Personally, I’m cool with both where it does not interfere with other’s rights. The government should not restrict those actions, but employers might. If people don’t like that their employer is demanding things that are contrary to their religious moral code, then they should regard the job just as immoral as any other job that is against their religion (running a casino, stripping, etc).
Doug –
You’re still conflating the terms ‘immigrant’ and ‘criminal alien’. The fact that you don’t want to make such a distinction underpins your whole argument. Apparently, though, you don’t want to acknowledge that.
Hence, that fundamental disagreement that I mentioned, and that you did not address.
BTW, I never said traveling at 120 mph was inherently bad – I provided context on the 120 mph speeder – he was traveling down your street. Where speed needs to be regulated. As does entry into this country…
Funny how the Minutemen are often criticized for watching the border and and then calling border patrol to apprehend illegals crossing our border but groups like La Raza and others who push their open border agenda and claim the U.S. SW belongs to Mexico are given a pass by some in the national media.
Only the head of the border patrol criticizes the Miniutemen who is a Bush apointee the rank and file border patrol appreciate the service the Minutemen provide and had a no confidence vote by the rank in file to it’s chief who is a Bush yes man.
It’s a free coutry and if people want to set on the border with binoculars and report illegal activity to the proper authorities for apprehension more power to them!
This is a quite good series of posts concerning immigration.My original point of illegal vs legal immigrants had nothing to do with criminals. Crinimals are probaly most likely legal status people,because they want to be protected if they get caught..Legality is an important consideration for everyone because ‘illegal status people’ are often duped out of considerable money to get false ID papers,and can be compromised in many ways.How can anyone get due process if we dont know what status his presence in the country is ? Illegal means ‘exploitation probably is OK’..no one dare complain and be heard.If Immigrant advocacy seeks to blur the line between legal and illegal status in the guise of a general immigration ,then everyone will be badly served. I would like someone to explain why legal vs legal is not an important consideration for everyone concerned.
My point about Muslim taxi drivers was that the religious right has opened the door for special rights for differing religious beliefs.Either we are ruled by secular law for everyone or we will become a religious quamire of people refusing to follow secular law. Islam is just a much a religion as Christianity is and I don’t think that america’s Christian fundamentalists ever even considered that..Democracy promises access and equal interpretation and religion is religion whether it is Christian or Islam .This was the point was trying to make above,but Im not saying the point cant be debated…France is fighting the secular-govt battle vs Islam battle as we speak.
Parker,
I freely concede that a significant subset of immigrants have broken the law in the course of their immigration — this subset can accurately be labeled “criminal aliens,” as you suggest. I’m leaping ahead to try to address the follow up question of “so what”.
The criminal aliens broke the law. So what? What’s the significance of that data point as we try to figure out how to proceed from here? If the law broken was something like rape or murder, we’d know that these criminal aliens were bad people we didn’t want anything further to do with. Lock them up, deport them, or kill them. End of discussion. But the law broken is not that type of law. It’s a regulatory law. The action itself isn’t bad, but that action combined with similar actions by a multitude of other people have undesirable side effects.
Now we’re left with the question of how best to alleviate the side effects of those who have already broken the law and come up with a system for the future that minimizes similar problems.
What I’m trying to get ahead of is the rhetorical tactic of someone basically yelling “THEY’RE CRIMINALS, DEPORT THEM ALL!” I’m not saying that’s where you would be going with the argument, Parker, I simply don’t know. But, I’ve seen it happen before. And, that’s not really fair discourse — it basically uses the negative associations of horrible crimes like rape and murder with less horrible acts that amount in many cases to transgressions against the bureaucracy.
I think merely sealing the border will ultimately have the same effect as sealing up a pressure cooker — you’ll have an explosion where, if you had opened the valves sufficiently, you could’ve had a tasty meal.
Doug –
It is somewhat distressing to see your attitude toward law – perhaps you have spent too much time in the company of our state legislature? I’ve noted instances of contempt for law there, especially in recent years. Especially sad coming from an attorney – is the law now just a big game for the insiders?
A citizen of another nation in this country is an ‘alien’. If they have entered this country illegally they are a ‘criminal alien’ by simple definition. No individual is necessarily a reason to go to DEFCON 1, granted – but they are criminals none the less.
You say ‘so what’, that this doesn’t matter – this goes back to our fundamental disagreement. I think it matters, and I think the way we are acting as a safety valve for Mexico acts to the detriment of both countries.
“The key question seems to be whether the United States should be a sovereign nation with control over its borders, or whether anyone should be able to wander in and enjoy all the benefits of citizenship.” Well?
No. Let’s be clear — I do say “so what,” but I’m asking for explanations for why it matters; not concluding that it doesn’t matter.
The law does not exist for its own sake. It is a tool society uses to regulate its affairs for various purposes. We need to define the purposes we are seeking to accomplish through immigration laws so that we can, in turn, identify which purposes are being served through current laws and which are not.
Those are two questions. As to question #1 – Yes. As to question #2 – No. But that hasn’t really gotten us anywhere. As to question #1, we do exert control over our borders, but imperfectly. As to question #2, no lawmakers, to my knowledge, have suggested removing all border restrictions and granting citizenship immediately and without conditions.
Try this, Doug.
Under pressure Majority Leader Reid has now agreed to have no final vote on this massive bill at the end of the week but rather debate this week and after the Memorial day holiday that week.The Senators were given this bill late Saturday night.
The reason Reid who also has problems with this bill did not want the extra week of debate is because then all the language and provisions of the bill will be known to the American people who have already began emailing and calling their representatives in graet numbers according to reports from various news coverage.
Here’s a interesting provision in the bill that illegal alien gang members simply need to renounce their membership in a gang to be granted the new magic pass Z visa.The bill allows law enforcement one day to varify their renouncement which makes no sense at all!
Lou,I respectfully disagree about saying criminals mostt likely being of legal status.I can name countless examples as reported by the media of illegal alien criminals.Rape,robbery,murder and just a few weeks ago as seen on America’s Most Wanted child rape where a illegal alien grabbed a pre-teen girl off her bike and raped her for three hours.These are not isolated incidents.Are there more crimes of these types committed by legal citizens?Sure,but my point is these people should not be here in the first place to commit the crimes they are commiting!
Remember also that when lawmakers go home for the holiday they will hear even more from constituents as happened with last years Senate bill that caused it to lose support although it still passed the Senate before going no where in the House.
The New York Times Editorial Board came out against this bill.The bill is getting hit by the left and the right.
Remember this about all the so called enforcement or “triggers” provisions in this bill that all a furture Congress has to do to get rid of them even though they would be law is to not fund them.Senator Kennedy knows this.He’s no fool although I can’t stand the man!
Mitt Romney and his constantly changing positions on this and other issues came out with a attack ad against Mcaine in Iowa on this legisaltion and after after previously being in third in Iowa is now up to 30% and leading in the latest poll.Senator Grahm of South Carolina a big supporter of this legisaltion was booed over the weekend at a Republican event as was Senator Chambless of Georgia at a different event.
I have yet to find one Democrat where I live who supports this legisaltion.Being a Democrat I get tired of hearing Democrats support this type of legislation.Maybe taken as a whole group nation wide they do but not every Democrat.I’d say a good number of midwestern Democrats will not support this bill.
Doug, I was going to point out the silliness of a member of the Bar advocating either lawbreaking or selective enforcement of the law, but Phillip did a much better job of that than I ever could with my meager writing skills.
However, you make two seemingly snide comments that should be highlighted and responded to.
You’re ancestors, and mine (though I’m 1/4 Blackfoot Indian, so I suppose I’m referring to the European ones) were interested in assimilating and becoming Americans. Those that are sneaking across the border today have no such desire. I blogged about the way to destroy a society a few weeks back, and todays illegal aliens are following that profile point by point.
In a fantasy world, they are. In the real world, they aren’t. Robert Rector of the Heritage Foundation has an interesting study (http://www.heritage.org/research/immigration/SR14es.cfm) pointing out that illegal immigrants cost taxpayers over $89 billion a year. Not quite a positive effect.
The reason? Because a majority of them lack even a high school education, are illiterate and rely on a high number of welfare resources (been down to Wishard lately?).
According to the study, the average illegal household receives $30,160 in benefits and pays $10,573 ($30,160 – 10,573 = loss of $19,588). Even my limited intelligence allows me to understand that this isn’t quote a net gain.
And B.S. on the myth that these are jobs Americans won’t do. I have two clients who are both in the same industry, light manufacturing. Both workforces are around 50-60. One company is entirely American, average age 35, average time at company 12 years. The other workforce is entirely American management, entirely Mexican hourly. The Mexican component average age is early 20’s, nearly 90% are illiterate and require a substantial amount of assistance (translators, including ones who can read them instructions, on top of a massive amount of public assistance).
The first company starting pay is around $9.50, and they include benefits. The second pays it’s management well (all offspring of the founder) and it’s hourly workers very poorly (starting at minimum wage, no bens).
That’s not even touching the massive crime issue attached to the illegal population, including serious driving offenses that Doug may or may not advocate looking the other way on.
BTW, I’m not a 28% er, so don’t even try to paint me with that brush.
That doesn’t quite answer the question. Let’s say that an immigrant produces $200 worth of value in the course of his employment and consumes $100 worth of value through living expenses. Now, let’s say that an employer keeps $125 worth of the value produced and gives the immigrant (or “criminal alien” if you prefer) $75. The immigrant then, presumably, goes to the taxpayer for the extra $25 he needs to live.
I have no idea if this scenario is or isn’t the case, but it does illustrate how an immigrant could produce more than he consumes and still be a drain on taxpayer resources. If that were, in fact, the case, presumably we could reorganize our laws such that the employer keeps $75, the immigrant keeps $125, and the taxpayers don’t pay anything.
Obviously, if the immigrant produces less value than he consumes, there isn’t much that can be done. We’d probably be best served to do the best we can to keep the net consumers out of the country (provided, of course, it doesn’t cost us more to keep them out of the country than they would consume if they were in.)
Other than growing corn, there isn’t much that our European ancestors wanted to assimilate to, at least not the first ones here. We totally distroyed the Native American way of life, and even the pockets of remaining reservations have assimilated more to European standards than their own (Casinos???).
As to the other generations of ancestors, ever hear of “Little Italy” or “Chinatown”? What about the german-speaking Amish? Yes, most eventually integrated, but it took decades. The Lutheran Churches around here stopped services in German around 1941. There were many Germans that didn’t speak a lick of english, even after years of being here. Most eventually did, we should allow the same for the Hispanics.
My own $0.03…
The only thing we should be doing with immigration is making it easier for people to come in IF:
-They want to stay here and become citizens
-They do not have a criminal record in their own country
-They are not part of a group that wishes the US harm.
All of the above being met, it should be an AUTOMATIC GREEN CARD, and quickly. If current illegals are not doing this, then either our system is too restrictive or we have not done enough to show them how to do it.
MOST of the people that are coming in are trying to make a better life for their family. MOST of us would do the very same thing for our families, at least I hope we would. I would drive 120mph (using discussion above) to get my little girls to the hospital, wouldn’t you?
Fix the issue with how to take in people first. Then crack down on employers first, followed by individuals, followed by securing the border.
/end $0.03
Ever wonder why such enclaves like “Chinatown” or “Little Italy” no longer exist? That would be because those immigrants figured out that noon-assimilation was the key to extended poverty, and a life that was strikingly similar to the one they left behind.
The Indian comparison was funny, but it actually proved my point more than yours. Indians have been forced to assimilate into white man culture as theirs/ours (hey, I have enough Indian blood to open a casino) was woefully behind the times, and led to forced poverty.
Look, I’m all for retaining culture, I’m just as proud of my Irish ancestry as my Indian. But multi-cultural ism, especially the PC kind rammed down our throats by liberals, will be the end of this nation, as it has been for so many others in the past.
Scribe’s interesting paragraph brings up so good points.
.Assimilation of Immigrants into our culture and then becoming equals with those already here, within the same generation, is liberal rather than conservative process, if we have to classify politically.Thank american public education and John Dewey for that historically. In the current debate it is some Democrats,what’s left of liberalism in this country, who want all immigrants,legal and illegal to become citizens with full rights.There is tremendous opposition to that from many sides.. What has changed now is that it’s the immigrant community through sometimes strident political leadership that are demanding certain special indulgences, (usually in the guise of religious freedom) rather than ‘just assimilation’and equality with those already here as had been the case.That’s kind of why im not taking my usual liberal stance as I usually do on social issues.I’m usually pro-individudal which is how I define ‘liberalism’. Also we already have a very liberal immigrant policy and it irks me that we have to have another program just for the Mexican border,and just for Spanish speakers,and just for the capitalists who want cheap labor. Once in a bilingual budget meeting in Chicago a bilingual teacher got up and said ‘no money should go to Polish bilingual education because bilingual means SPANISH( at the time there were whole classrooms of Polish immigrant kids Polish- only speaking). That was a ‘Eureka moment’ for me,so I understand my own biais if that’s what it is. Everyone needs to speak English for legal treatment and English should be the offical language of the USA. Everyone should be able to speak any language among themselves anywhere they want.Thats isn’t even a question. .I love ethnicity and I speak both French and Spanish at a functional fluency,but the only language that is cultural( complete freedom) for me is English. If you do not speak English in the USA,you will never get full legal protection,and you will always be at some disadvantage.. English is the language of law,because law was written in Engish and relates to English commonlaw culturally. Something is always lost in any translation and everyone is at the mercy of the translator,who may make mistakes in intent of law or have their own agenda for the client. So for me the number one first step for assimilation is learning functional English.
Also contained in this bill is the granting of the Z visa to a estimated 30,000 illegal immigrant gang members if they renounce membership in the gang to which they are a member.Law enforcement is then given 24hrs to check this out.
The immigrants will not assimilate because the new Z visa gives them the option of re-newing it indefinitely without becoming citizens and going through all the requirements however they will still be allowed to receive benefits of U.S. citizens I believe as well as staying here indefinitely.
As far as enforcement of the new guest worker program that calls for 400,000 immigrants each and every year who must return to their country of origin for one year before returning the reason I know this will not be enforced is currently there are around 600,000 illegal alien futives who are under court order to be deported and no one can find them!
Lou,
Last week police officer Frank Fabiono was shot and killed by illegal alien Ezeiquel Lopez.Lopez had a long rap sheet of crimes including battery and was never deported there are many such cases happening all over this country.
The bill also contains a first time ever provision that will have U.S. taxpayers foot the bill for hiring legal help in the form of a lawyer to help illegal immigrants through the process if they wish to become a citizen.Previously no Federal legal aid was supposed to have been granted to illegal immigrants.
This is just one more example of the trillions of dollars this thing is going to cost.Also all back ground checks for people applying for the Z visa must be completed in 24hrs.So much for the argument we need to know who’s in our country for safety reasons.This will never be workable with the massive amount of people we are talking about.
Jason,
The fact that you would do anything to provide for your family as would anyone is not the issue in my opinion.The issue is do we as citizens of the United States have to provide for the citizens of mainly Mexico and Central America?In my opinion sticking the American taxpayers with the expense of this massive bill because these countries governments are corupt and incompetent is rediculous and I am not alone in my thinking.
The Senate just voted Senator Byron Dorgans(D) amendment down which was to strike the guest worker program from this bill 64-31.I will have to see how Senator Bahy voted on this as in emails from his staff to me he said he would never support ANY immigration reform legislation which contained a guest worker program!
Phillip,
It’s not just the felons we can’t keep track of.And we shouldn’t make a policy for all illegals because some are felons,who we can’t or won’t keep track of.Clarifying status of immigrants,legal and illegal would make legislation very much easier.We should start with border control,because that’s where illegal/legal starts… but we won’t.
I seem to have repeated myself about the gang member provision in this bill from a earlier post.It’s just that I still can’t beleive any Senator could endorse such a thing!
Lou,
I agree with that but you know this government will never be able to carry out the back ground checks because of the numbers of people we are talking about and they have to do it in 24hrs according to this legislation.What will happen is they will get the Z visa and be gone.
I think many people would go along with a amnesty if the government would FIRST secure the border and prove it is secure and keep it that way.This can be done as could a employment varification law.Simple you do not have the biometric card you do not get a job.If you can’t get a job you won’t come.
The problem is as I’ve stated numerous times and the reason most Americans are up in arms about this legisaltion is we know the government will not do the enforcement..Last years fence legislation which was not funded is cut in half in this bill and will never happen and you know this.
I mean these 12 million people have been here for years illegally they can wait a few more years and see if the government is being truthful about border enforcement which they are not.They want to pass the legislation get the amnesty like in 1986 and goodbye enforcement you can count on that.
Obama,Clinton,and Mccain absent for the first vote on this bill by Dorgan which would have struck the Guest worker program.
Although it matters not whether Mccain shows up.He’s done politically as far as his presidential bid!He’s getting killed on this issue.
Phillip,
It boils down to this: we are seeking to pass a new immigration law that needs a huge government bureacracy to administer,and many of those passing the law dont really care what is in it,or that it can’t be administered,and don’t believe in big government in the first place.I honestly think the ‘attitude’ ‘ is, pass a law,any law, because the country is ‘upset’,and we have to do something to get re-elected. I’m one of those people who thinks elected government isnt always good,but it’s better than private control without government oversight,because vast amounts of money will be flowing every which direction and private control in that atmosphere is nearly hopeless and destined to be corrupt and self-serving,and we can vote them out if we vote them in,which is never the case with private control.That’s the background motivating much of this immigrant legislation. That being said,Im starting off on road shortly and will be keeping track of changing sunrise and sunset as I travel across this great country,wondering what will happen in SW Indiana counties when DOT gives its decison on CT vs ET!
Lou,
Have a safe trip!Time zone battle continues to rage I have excahnge some emails with Representative Crooks regarding his changing position on this matter.
Last night at the Perry county commissioners meeting attended by upset residents who do not want the county to re-petition for Eastern time if the other counties request is granted. The commissioners told Central time supporters with a over 1000 name petition to remain on Central time and 174 businesses also wanting to reamin on Central time as well as the Perry county school board that this does not matter.
Funny how when Eastern time supporters submit such things they are considered a ground swell support for Eastern time but when Central time supporters submit such things they do not matter.
Since popular opinion does not matter to the DOT only convenience of commerce the support for Central time should not matter but I tell you this it’s gonna matter if the time zone switches to these commissioners when they run again.
We still await the third response or submission from Ice Miller LLP to the DOT’s April 2nd request so we can challenge it as we did the previous two which were error filled and misleading.
Mr.Byrd has submitted a 16 and 7 page commuter study of the petitioning counties and according to his research(verifiable) and the latest info the DOT put in their April 2nd response to Ice Miller the commuter numbers overwhelmingly favor the region remaining in the Central time zone as does just about everything else so we will see.
IMMIGRATION BILL
Senator Bahy was one who voted to strike the Guest worker program while Lugar voted to keep it.The new guest worker program is not for workers to pick the fruit and veggies(this program already exists) but is a seperate program which will bring more low skilled labor to the U.S. to depress wages for the working poor in our country.