Yesterday there was an immigration demonstration in Indianapolis. 20,000 or more marchers rallied to protest the immigration legislation being considered by the United States Congress. I don’t have any deep thoughts to offer up at the moment. But I will note that:
1) The Latinos I’ve seen in my communities of Monticello and Lafayette seem to be, by and large, very positive additions to the community. As a collections attorney, I come across the poor people of every race in our community. My general impression is that the Latino debtors, by and large, try harder to pay their debts. I couldn’t say whether a particular debtor is in the United States legally or illegally, but I’d be surprised if a substantial number weren’t here illegally.
2) Historically this nativist fear of being overrun by immigrants crops up again and again and again. From the Know-Nothings in the 1850s to the Chinese Exclusion Act of the 1880s to the second Ku Klux Klan in the 1920s. I’m not sure the current panic is any different or any less ugly than those in the past.
3) If you do want to do something about the problem, such as it is, drain the swamp, don’t try to go whacking alligators on the head. If we’re serious about controlling immigration, give a try to enforcing the laws currently in place against employers who routinely hire undocumented workers. And I think the sentiment that they will do jobs Americans won’t is nonsense. It’s supply and demand. When your supply of workers is reduced, demand increases and the price increases. In short, we’d have to pay a living wage for these services.
In many ways, so far this current atmosphere is less nasty than those you mention. I hope that civility continues as we progress towards real solutions.
The wild card issue I see in Immigration is the Mexican Government. They are laughing all the way to the bank. Fox and the Mexican government have been failing to provide for their people for some time, and almost delibertely so. “You don’t like it here, go to America!”
A staunch opponent of our exercise in Iraq as a departure from proper American strategy on the War on Terror… maybe now I am for regime change. ;)
Agreed. I want to see the existing laws enforced, and the proper resources given so that everyone that wants to come here can. I am not sure what the process is for citizenship, however I would assume / hope that we require:
Demonstration of the ability to contribute to the workforce (I think that is almost a given)
Ability to speak / read the national language at a basic (5th grade for an adult?) level.
Background check in home country
Instruction or understanding of our founding documents
If we want to make sure everyone doesn’t get shipped home, allow everyone to go *through* the process and become citizens before deportation. Set a deadline for everyone to self-report and start their way through the process. Deport those who refuse to comply. Cut the red tape or increase the staffing so this isn’t a multi-year process. Don’t give a blank pass for everyone as a solution.
Ive had to really examine my thinking on immigration as I find myself agreeing instinctively with the very conservative republicans on border control.Law is law.Build a border wall!To break a law we should expect to pay a penalty and there’s something perverse about advocating breaking (immigration) laws and expecting to be treated as if we we’re legal all along.And waving the Mexican flag in the crowd was more than this so-called ‘liberal’ could take.
Right! I think going after employers is the sensible right way to start solving the problem. Of course we will not deport illegals by the millions, we cant even keep track of a few. They must somehow be convinced going back and then re-entering in a legal way is in their best interest. But I think the HUGE problem will be how to tell if someone is legal or illegal,given that both liberal and conservative thinkers in USA have a knee-jerk reaction against National ID’s. I dont see any solution ,however, to anonymous illegals, without a national ID system, ,so I guess it’s a choice that must be made, unless there are more creative solutions down the pike.
I hope these illegals are as aggressive about organizing into labor unions as they are about being given amnesty for their illegal status! A strong rivival of the lABOR union movement would be a great giant step to solving many of our ecomonoic woes, among them, low wages with no redress.I sense Step 2 after amnesty might be Labor organizing.These people dont intend to be ‘pushed around’,as they see it!
One step we can take is examine whether our immigration policy, particularly its policies toward prohibiting immigration, makes sense. I have no real idea what it says, so I don’t have a position on this.
I do know, however, that in decades past, much of our immigration policy has been based on fear, racism, and xenophobia. Obviously we shouldn’t let those things be motivating factors. However, there is certainly a place for policies that legitimately reflect a need population control and a recognition of limited resources that would be overtaxed by an influx of unskilled, poverty-stricken immigrants. (On the other hand, I think there is a certain protection in that the sorts of people who have the gumption to actually make it into the U.S. tend to be the sorts of people who have the drive to make a life for themselves if given an opportunity.)
As a general matter, I don’t have a problem with dispassionately crafted rational immigration policies. But I’m wary of political activity that seems to reflect the sentiments of 19th Century robber baron, Jay Gould, who famously said, “I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.” In other words, it may be that the decline of the middle class in this country has more to do with the Gilded Age concentrations of wealth we’ve seen lately and less to do with illegal immigration.
Lou’s most recent comment slipped in while I was composing my comment and seems to reflect a similar concern about labor versus capital. (Not to go all Marxist here. I’m a big fan of free market capitalism, I just think that unchecked concentrations of wealth and power corrupt the system and make the market less responsive.)
Yes,Doug, and what is so amaqzing about the demonstrations is that they are so well orgamized,..form talk ra
oops. sorry for that!
What is so remarbable about these demonstrations is that they are so well organized and have so many passionate participants.Its ‘grass roots’ in the finest american sense.Many give credit to Hispanic radio to get people into the streets. Racism is always close to the surface in this country and we must avoid that.But I still think thwarting legality is bad precdent, and then later there will be a demand by these same people to be treated fairly by the legal system.
I just want to see people learning English and repecting our american heritage of due process and I think in the long run everyone comes out better.
I lived in France and spoke French there and Ive lived short periods of time in Mexico and spoke Spanish there. ( If I can do it, anyone can ) Theres no reason why everyone cant speak English eventually but it MUST be a goal. I think we should demand that much as americans, and as a country of immigrants
Just an aside, but I can sympathize on the flag issue. I don’t know how prominent the Mexican flag waving was — I can certainly see that kind of thing getting blown out of proportion on right-wing talk radio and Fox News. But, nevertheless, whenever I see a Confederate battle flag waving or pasted on someone’s car or truck, I see reverence for treason against the United States, and my hackles go up.
Whatever our immigration policy is supposed to be is a moot point; its overwhelmed by special interest groups wanting illegality to continue. Federal Govt has cut so much that anything depending on fedral oversight is barely functioning to begin with.Immigrant advocates refuse to make a distinction betwteen ‘
‘legal’ and ‘illegal’immigration so we can’t even have a meaningful discussion on any level.
I take issue with Jason’s statement: “Ability to speak / read the national language at a basic (5th grade for an adult?) level.”
The United States has no national language.
Of course, Lou, you spoke the language in those countries because you had to in order to live. However, if you went to France and lived with other Americans, worked with English speaking people, and only shopped at the American grocery, would you speak French to these people? I suspect not.
For people who are already discriminated against and treated poorly, it’s VERY intimidating to try to speak English. They fear they’ll be laughed at if they say something wrong. I did a short spell as an ESL teacher, and the classes were filled with people who wanted nothing more than to learn English. Unfortunately, they didn’t need to speak English at work, or at home, so they rarely had the opportunity to practice, which makes it hard to master.
Amy,
The intimidation comes from the difference of social level and intimidation of boss-employee relationship as much as anything.How do we get English-speaking and foreign speakers all doing the same job? I truly fear we’re developing a caste system.Thats why im so against Bushs proposal for a temporary worker status>THis is straight of the novel 1984 of raising people for certain work.Its a dangerous way to go for this country to have defined worker groups,non citizen, who can and will be easily exploited.
I dont like the other proposals of giving illegals citizenship either,but it’s at least higher morally on the ‘human level’.
And its a good point, I made all kinds of errors in French but i considered myself among EQUALS.
In France legal system was in French and in France you have to PROVE youre innocent,and you have to do it in French.To be truly free in a country you must speak the language of the LAW and in USA that’s ENGLISH.
Amy,
Thanks for correcting me on that. I did some research and found that English is only the de facto language. Oddly enough, English isn’t even the official language of England! (According to Wiki *1 grain salt here*)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_where_English_is_an_official_language
I am very surprised by this. I keep thinking how Canada has French and English on EVERYTHING. I assume this is because they are both *official*. Since we don’t have one, does that mean that someone that speaks German could sue McDonalds because they couldn’t read the “This drink is HOT!” sign? Or a “No Parking or we’ll tow you and charge you $200” in French could be held up since we don’t have an official language?
How about Esperanto? I’d be for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto
In the end, though, I still feel those that come to this country should be able to speak English. WE SHOULD ASSIST THEM IN LEARNING. I feel that we have enough languages in the world anyhow. We should be focusing on making it easier to communicate with everyone. I don’t think we’ll do that by making everyone learn Chineese, English, French, German, etc… Let’s pick one, or create one, and move forward.
I watched the entire thing from a roof-top on Vermont St.. The “protest” was quite a site; I would guess that the number of participants comes as somewhat of a surprise to many people. BTW, I saw less than a half-dozen Mexican flags in the entire group. Observations:
1) Can’t quite get the drag queen dressed as Wonder Woman out of my mind (the car she was riding in kept blaring out Ave Maria… very surreal).
2) Two guys in Goofy masks carrying rectangular signs with three colored squares: yellow, blue, and red (if I remember correctly). No clue what it meant.
3) Many of the chants were in Spanish which I think didn’t do a lot to get their point across to non-spanish-speaking bystanders.
4) The group going along at the end of the march with garbage sacks was cool. When all was said and done, the street was cleaner than when it started.