According to WTWO the Knox County commissioners voted 3 – 0 to re-petition the U.S. Dept. of Transportation – this time to be moved to the Eastern Time Zone. I’m not sure what is up with the creative spelling in this report, but I did not alter the text in the following paragraphs:
Knox County`s Board President said it was a 50-50 issue with residents, so was it a mistake to ask the DOT to move to Central Time in the first place?:
“Today, it`s a mistake. At the time, it was the right decision. And the reason it was the right decision is cuz we asked the public, we had the chamber of commerce, we had the radio, we asked the public to attend our meetings just for that reason, and we just couldn`t get people interested. And so when the numbers started coming in, there weren`t very many, it wasn`t a good sampling, and we knew it wasn`t a good sampling, but at that time, it was definately for Central,” said James Bobe, President of the Knox County Commissioners.
What’s interesting is how these 4 counties are going together as one group, asking either to all stay on CT or all be re-granted ET. It’s amazing they all agreed to petition.No one can foresee anything when it comes to time in Indiana!
I live in Martin county as I have stated before there is no consensus for EDT just weak willed commissioners who could not stand by a decision for at least a year and flip flopped which will be the end of their political aspirations as many are mad at them.Tim Joyce of Knox county and other CDT time supporters will comment to the DOT and be heard on this matter and continue to fight for CDT this is far from a sure thing(the re-petition)the DOT might simply do the intelligent thing and keep the counties on CDT after all its what they asked for.After 5 months and 22 hours of hearings,over 6000 comments to the docket and issuing a final 18 page report and final ruling I hope they are not that quick to reverse themselves also look for Pike county to re-petition and probably Perry county bringing the total to 6 counties in southwest Indiana.
I don’t think we can trust any politician with this issue. The 3-0 vote of the Knox County Commissioners to petition DOT was very disappointing. I was fully expecting the Northwest and Southwest counties to lead the revolt. It is understandable that no county wants to be a border county but I don’t understand why Vincennes wants to rival Terre Haute and Boise, Idaho for the latest sunrises in the country.
I am not one for conspiracy theories but I suspect the Chamber of Commerce has been stirring up the business interests in these counties. There have been reports that even Dave Crooks has gone over to the “Dark Side.” This brings up an interesting point. Just where is the Democrat Party? They are missing a golden opportunity to seize control of the General Assembly. Maybe the tentacles of the Chamber have also reached into their ranks.
I don’t think we need look for conspiracies. The Indiana Chamber has long and publically supported ET for all of Indiana outside of Lake and Porter Counties. In this I think they simply reflect the desires of a section of the Indianapolis business community, which in my experience is very aggressive. While Louisville and Cincinatti have their fans, those cities are peanuts compared to Chicago and the influence that city has across the breadth of northern Indiana. The Indiana Chamber seems totally deaf, if not hostile, to those of us who would like to be in sync with both Chicago and Indy (or in my case, I’ll admit, just to Chicago, Indy might as well on Mars from the point of view of what I do). Even here in Fort Wayne, while the local chamber made much of the majority support business gave to being in sync with Indianapolis, some 20% of the respondents to their time zone poll expressed a preference for following Chicago onto Central Time regardless of what Indy did. It is not just a question of taking our business to Chicago rather than Indy, in my case I get business from Chicago.
Have these people never heard of “Spellcheck” before? I can’t fathom why all of those mistakes would be present in an official government document.
People want time unity in their daily lives.Does this mean being the same time as Evansville or as Indianapolis and the rest of the state? Isnt that the basis of thinking for these counties that are re-petitioning? It just means another round of hearings,and it’s better to do it now rather let the issue fester.I’ll make a safe prediction as say all the counties that re-petition will be handled as ONE UNIT,all staying on CT or all going back to ET.After another decision by USDOT that will be it!
Spellcheck is a real problem if you type other than English on same typewriter..Blame it on bi-lingualism.
just one more thought on this issue..
It is unprecedented that 5 (or 6?)counties have banned togther to re-petition for a time zone change as one unit and theyre actually asking to go back to where they had successfully been for 30+ yrs, on ET. USDOT makes has no jurisdiction over DST, so that won’t be an issue for their decision.I think these counties could just argue they were mislead, misinformed,and now feel ‘kicked out of the state’ and they just want to go back to ‘what worked’ It will be very interesting what USDOT will do… dont have a clue.
No Lou, it is not unprecedented for a group of counties to band together on a time petition. The four westernmost counties of Michigan’s UP did so in 1970 when they requested CT.
Paul,
and they were granted CT then? a group together probably has more clout than a single county petition.
Yes.
New postings on the DOT docket from Senior Counsel Judy Kaleta in a letter to the commissioners of Pulaski county dated May 22 in reference to their new 286 page petition to move back to eastern time is a good read she scolds the commissioners asking what has changed since their last petition then in a 11 page letter goes point by point contrasting the differences between the old petition and the new one and in a May 1 teleconference with commissioners let them have it again asking if they had provided false information to the federal government and that the department had put in a lot of time on this issue and their petition last year.She also states this petition does not provide enough information for a time zone change and they will have to have more information to convince them to issue a NPRM and propose a change and they have until June 30 to provide another petition or ask for a extension.This sounds to me like any more changes are going to be a hard sell.In my county Martin our Central time petition last year was 3 pages.I do not blame this woman for being angry.She spent a week in Indiana last year getting griped at and now these idiot commissioners are wanting another change.I know at the Jasper hearing the commissioners of southwest Indiana really gave her grief and argued their case for Central time at length.What new info can these commissioners provide that Central wont work it hasnt even been 2 months yet.Absurd!
I read the postings from the DOT (though not all of Pulaski County’s tome) and the DOT’s response to Pulaski County might be called frosty. I think the DOT letter, though not directed to the SW counties, is quite pertinent to the situation there. The SW counties generated a much longer paper trail and far more thorough case than did Pulaski, many of the Commissioners made personal appeals at the hearings, and to put it bluntly, the case for CT in the six SW counties is really pretty strong, certainly stronger than was the case for CT in Pulaski. Unlike Pulaski, the Governnor and even State Rep. Torr recommended making thhe switch. And as I understand it, Commissioner Fleck in Dubois County voted against, and is opposing, the petition to switch back.
The commissioners of the SW counties don’t seem to have read the DOT decision either. Why else would pro ET commissioners from Dubois and Knox have popped off about forcing Vanderburgh County to move to Eastern? St. Joseph County hurt its own attempt to move to Central through comparable statements about forcing Elkhart to move to Central. I suppose they hoped to placate their own residents, or shift the blame to someone else when they lose. But they have already acknowledged how important Evansville is to them. The Commissioners in Knox, Pike, Daviess, Martin and Dubois Counties (we haven’t heard from Perry yet) ought to stop and take a long look at what they are doing before they make complete fools of themselves.
Paul,you are exactly right about the commissioners of my area southwest Indiana they have no clue about what is going on.Would you believe back in February when I went to new time meetings and called these guys on the phone they hadn`t even read the final 18 page DOT report on the state of Indiana time boundary and that our county(Martin) council who also got involved in this had not even read this counties petition!We have since voted the commissioner John Collins out who was running in a primary and the time issue was a factor!You are also right about how the area commissioners have stressed and drove the notion home to the DOT that they needed to be on the same time as Evansville and that they all needed to be united as a region with the other 5 counties already on Central time,well for the first time in years they are united as a region. The other commissioner who voted to re-petition for eastern time said all that crap too about getting the other 5 counties that have always been in Central to switch to eastern which if they would bother to have read the final report they would know the Indiana legislature asked the DOT to move those counties in 1985 and was denied.The eastern time advocates around here think because they signed some petitions and got the commissioners to flip flop that it is a done deal and we will be moved back to eastern time this fall I told some of them I know not to count on it nothing is a sure thing.Popular opinion is the last thing that matters in this which opinion is 50-50 at best and when you get down around Dubois its way more for Central but commissioner John Burger a huge Central time backer was coerced and pressured to change his vote by big money influential people of Jasper.This has been stated by people of Dubois county and off the record form state Senator Lindel Hume who represents my area.I really dont think these guys will mind if the petitions are denied so they can say they tried and maybe eastern time advocates will leave them alone.
What position(if any) Govenor McDaniels takes in this re-petitioning will be very important. What he advised for the final decision in January came down as he advised. I don’t think he made a statement on Pulaski county,but everything else was decided as he had advised.
Oh what a tangled web he wove, when Mitch first practice to deceive. His stated goal was to bring Indiana in sync with the rest of the country. The result has been that Indiana is more divided than ever and out of sync with everyone. I sympathize with the people in these counties being arbitrary placed in a different time zone than their friends and family in the neighboring counties. But it is absolutely absurd for Knox County to even consider being on a different time than Illinois and to request the same time as Maine. Why hasn’t there been an effort in Sullivan, Greene, Monroe, Jackson, Lawrence, and Orange counties to seek Central time? The answer is there is not an organization such as the Chamber of Commerce pushing for it. I am sure the Chamber is behind the discontent in the 6 counties that are in the process of petitioning for Eastern. It is interesting that the 2nd petition from Pulaski was much longer than the first. The 2nd was most likely written by the Chamber. Another interesting point is the school district that was split chose Eastern whereas Central is much more education friendly.
The root cause of these problems is DOT’s process is seriously flawed. It was set up to handle requests coming from counties which want to join their sister counties in order to unite a state that is otherwise divided by a natural zone boundary. It was not intended for Indiana which is unnaturally divided. The process caterers to special interests groups. The only way this issue can ever be resolved is by referendum. There is absolutely no reason for Indiana to be a divided state. When you start dividing a state where do you stop?
From what I have read of Pulaski County’s second petition I can’t imagine it was written by the Chamber.
Jim,it was stated by a reporter for the Bedford paper at the Martin county time meeting in February that Lawrence had planned on re-petitioning for Central time since their first request last year was denied as was Sullivan counties.Most people over in Orange county feel more connected to the east and Louisville so they say anyway.Last week Governor Daniels was in Daviess county talking up Major moves ,all the local officials were there and Troy Woodruff(the most unpopular man in Daviess and Knox counties) some eastern time advocates were there and asked the GOV. about the time situation and he stated he would do what he could to help them get back on eastern time so it was reported in the Washington paper I also heard some people favoring Central time were there speaking for that but this was not printed.Whether the GOV. is telling them the truth who knows or if the DOT will listen to him again who knows?
I hope I’m not tiresome but I think the rationale for going back to ET has to be different from the documentation leading to CT.USDOT has a very good point questioning how accurate the original information was in Pulaski County.But anything public has to leave a paper trail,even if the paper trail is bogus to partially bogus.There must always be the impression of HARD work and DELIBERATION concerning matters of public concern .But then the paper trail comes back to haunt any reversal of the original USDOT decision ,and opponents will go into everything written with the ‘fine tooth comb’ making sure USDOT is aware of any discrepancy. The one thing the SW counties have on their side is that they are all asking together and that is impressive.And they evidently have the govenor on their side. It’s all amazing.But I can just see the reaction at USDOT when they receive the petitions that the WHOLE area wants to go back to where it was.They will want to throw it all out,but will have to deal with it as they are a public agency.
It’s clear to me that the thing to do is to *really* go back to the way things were — EST all year round, not EST/EDT. That was the approach that seemed to cut the Gordian knot.
What do mean Lou that “the rationale for going back to ET has to be different from the documentation leading to CT”? In view of the 22 May Pulaski County letter I cannot imagine that the DOT will throw out all the factors that led them to move the SW counties to Central Time in favor of some completely new “rationale”. The DOT will apply the same standards as before and the Counties in the SW that are involved will have to explain what has changed, if anything, in their condition.
I think too that you are way too impressed by their acting as a group will work some sort of magic with the DOT. They acted as group before when they stressed the relationship of the group to the other Evansville area counties. On this point Pulaski County may have an out by not being part of a “group” or at least not the group it expected to be placed with. Pulaski can say that other important area counties that had petitioned to move to CT (e.g. St. Joseph, Marshall) were denied their petitions. They can even argue that they were confused by the dynamics of the process and that they didn’t withdraw their petition since they weren’t sure what would happen in the end, especially in view of the fact that St. Joseph County had been approved for the switch in the NPRM and that that fact might have led to Marshall County and Fulton County also getting the nod. The SW counties on the other hand very forcefully argued as a group during the hearings for CT, got exactly what they asked for and what they had persisted in asking for.
Group or not, Knox, Daviess, Martin, Dubois and Pike Counties have an uphill climb.
Paul,
CT has one set of reasoning and ET has another set of reasoning. It all depends on who’s giving the presentation ( like two lawyers,one defense and one prosecution).ET unites/CT divides..keep the TZ division as far from center of state as possibel,etc.
Petitioning as a group is a positive because it shows a widespread agreement for ET. And should the govenor recommend that these counties be returned to ET, that would be MAJOR.But that may not be enough to appease USDOT who just went through all this deliberation with LONG hours of work and compilation of data.It’s an uphill fight; I agree with that.USDOT has to be convinced that the NEW story is the TRUE story.
But I think it’s true that WHO wants WHAT is still more compelling than the reasoned out case for what either side wants.
I’m fascinated by the fact that the time issue NEVER goes away even when it’s ‘settled’.Im also surprised that the the trend now is going back to ET rather than a push for other counties to go to CT.Ive come to the conclusion that the hype for CT in Indiana is way over stated.People just want unity ..either time will do fine.
Your spiel is complete nonsense Lou no how many capital letters you use. The DOT located the time line to keep what they found to be a distinct economic region intact. They did so on the basis of evidence. Whatever new story these counties devise, if any, they will be asked to explain what has changed in terms of that evidence commuting and traffic flows, sources of news, commercial air service, locales for shopping, and so on. The county commissioners pointed to Evansville last fall and last I looked Evansville was still there. Now if they could get Evansville to go along with this scheme my view of their prospects would change, but not until then.
It is going to be very intresting to compare my counties petition (Martin) with the last one they turned in as I said it was 3 pages.Lets face it the only reason Martin,Daviess and Dubois were finally granted Central was the area commissioners, state reps. and Mayors arguing hard at the 5 hour DOT hearing in Jasper hammering the point over and over about the influence of Evansville on the region and regional unity for economic as well as social regions and with the Governor calling this a natural region that should not be split up and the DOT saying the 6 counties have more in common with each other and the 5 counties already in Central plus the paper trail of quotes from the commissioners at that hearing I`m hoping this is a hard sell to the DOT since all the previous quotes and info can be used against them.The counties wanted to try to turn in one petition for all but quickly found out they couldn`t being told what we all know that it is a county by county basis.I dont mean to keep repeating myself but whats funny about this is these guys did get exactly what they wanted last year regional unity with each other and Evansville.I told people around here last year if Martin counties petition was granted those Crane workers around 3000 out 4000 are from eastern time counties would throw a fit and they did although reps from Crane were invited to the local meetings none showed.I`m sure the Crane employees rep Cary Bledsoe from Sullivan county will be helping our commissioners with the new petition he offered to last FEB.stating Crane would be doomed on Central time which they have technically operated on almost 7 months out of the year for over thirty years anyway.