Daviess, Dubois, Knox, Martin, and Pike Counties have filed a petition (pdf) with the United States Department of Transportation to move from the Central Time Zone into the Eastern Time Zone. Pulaski has also apparently filed a petition separately from the southwestern counties.
Governor Daniels has written a letter (pdf) supporting the joint petition. The letter contains a few whoppers worth noting:
For the vast majority of the 76 Indiana counties that joined the world of Daylight Saving Time, the selection of time zone was not difficult.
Well, no it wasn’t. Because nobody bothered to ask them. How many counties even had their commissioners take up the issue? I’ll bet considerably less than half.
The law passed in 2005 that put Indiana on DST also specifically encouraged each individual county to assert its own view on the choice of time zone, and bound the state to support that view.
Yes and no. SEA 127-2005 specifically directed the Governor to provide the USDOT with any documentation necessary to have the USDOT initiate hearings on the proper boundary between the Eastern and Central Time Zones. He did not provide any documentation to the USDOT with respect to the convenience of commerce in the state. He did nothing more than provide the USDOT with a copy of the legislation. Gov. Daniels is, however, correct that the State was bound to support any county that petitioned for a change in time zone. He actively chose to break that law by requesting the Secretary of Transportation to reject the request of the Commissioners of St. Joseph County. At the time, he put forth some disingenuous nonsense about how the legislation required him only to support the process by which the Commissioners reached a determination, not the decision itself. Now that it suits him, he acknowledges that the state is bound to support the choice of the County Commissioners.
As governor, my longstanding position has been that local preference should be respected as much as possible.
Nothing about the Governor’s many, many positions on time zones can be regarded as “long standing.” First Central Time was most desirable. Then, once he was elected, he seemed to have no position on time zones. Then he was in favor of state wide hearings. Then he was in favor of decision making by county commissioners. Then he didn’t favor the St. Joseph County Commissioners decisions. Then he favored the Southwestern region of Indiana around Evansville being on Central Time. Now he favors much of that region being on Eastern Time.
It is important to note that during the initial petition process, the counties in these affected regions were forced to make their petitions not knowing for certain which time zone their neighbor counties would land in.
That wasn’t a problem just for the affected regions. That was a problem everywhere. That is the main reason why a county-by-county solution is a Bad Idea.
Also, as Jim pointed out in the comments, the Governor’s current position is, surprise surprise, at odds with his past position with respect to southwestern Indiana. November 29, 2005 (pdf):
Second, in Southwest Indiana your proposed rule would divide a multi-county region that, through your public hearing process, has expressed a clear argument and desire to be placed together on Central time. The Department proposal correctly added three counties (Perry, Knox, and Pike) to the five existing Central Time Zone counties in Southwest Indiana. However, to fully preserve the unity of this region it is essential that you grant the petitions of the three remaining counties in this corner of the state (Daviess, Dubois, and Martin).
Contrast that with his August 14, 2006 position:
Daviess, Dubious [sic], Knox, Martin, and Pike Counties in Southwest Indiana belong in the Eastern Standard [sic] time zone.
(Governor, we all belong on Eastern Standard Time; which is where we were year round before you and Troy “I’ll never vote for it” Woodruff put us on Eastern Daylight Time.)
Below is a map showing the affected areas. My thanks to my wife, Amy, for touching up the map a bit. This is the 8th map iteration and frankly, the map was getting a little dog-eared with all the changes.
Doug,every county in southwest Indiana that petitioned except Lawrence which is not as connected to the rest of our counties was eventually granted Central time.That is what the commissioners argued at the November DOT hearing in Jasper to Judy Kaleta they wanted and thats what they got.Now because 100 people from my county ,Martin complained they wanted EDT at a meeting in FEB and 200 again not all from Daviess county,200 from Knox and 600 out of 800 from Dubois county (a large county) the commissioners change position also many of these people who went to these new time meetings simply traveled from county to county.I hate the governor period !He screwed up the time and now the licsense branches.As Jim stated they had to hire a INDY law firm to write their new petitions and speed up the process because a few months ago Martin county stated the new petitions would not be ready until October I suspect they are trying to get this changed by this Fall.The governor is a master of the old bait and switch!I like how all the facts of the new petition are totally different. As for Martin counties economic developement director Jerry Ott he is from the eastern time zone.Hardly any Crane employees from Martin county or the other Central time zone counties complained just the 3000 or so from the Eastern zone who never even pass through Loogootee or Shoals or by cup of coffee here!To quote the DOT in their final ruling “DOT is relocating,for the convenience of commerce the time zone boundary in Knox,Pike,Daviess,Dubois,and Martin counties to the Central time zone.As described above in the summary of the hearings and comments to the docket these six counties have strong regional ties to each other and CENTRAL TIME ZONE COUNTIES.While Daviess,Dubois,Knox,and Martin counties border other counties in the Eastern time zone,their ties to those counties is not as strong as they are to each other and to OTHER COUNTIES TO THEIR SOUTH,WHICH ARE CURRENTLY IN THE CENTRAL TIME ZONE.”I wonder if the DOT will reverse themselves since it has been just 7 months since the last ruling?I`m sure they will do what the two faced governor asked them to.And how dare he speak for everyone on time zone issues as Doug stated.How the hell would he know what the majority of people want.Did he take a poll?As far as I know their has been no referendum vote has there!I wish to say again I respect people who want EDT as long as it is for convenience sake or you just want a extra hour of daylight at the end of the day.But the economic argument EDT supporters make is all smoke and mirrors.As SEN Lindel Hume stated all you get when you move the time zone boundary is a whole new group of mad people!!Except now if the boundary is moved again people who commute out of county to work in the Central time zone such as Toyota workers who work in Gibson county will get home a hour later all year long.Some of these people I have talked to who live in Knox county are considering moving but as long as the out of county Crane workers wont be bothered it`s all good!The new petition mentions how these people are burdened now by the time zone and I can sympathize but these people who do not live in Martin county or pay taxes here care little that those same set of problems will now fall on residents of my county(Martin)!!!
When I read the Governor’s cover letter late this afternoon I gagged on the very items you highlighted Doug. I have to admit though that his whoppers have a certain chutzpah to them.
First:
“For the vast majority of the 76 Indiana counties that joined the world of Daylight Saving Time, the selection of time zone was not difficult.”
Well gee, the DOT said they weren’t out to create islands of time so any county not actually bordering the Central Time zone had virtually no chance of being considered. The act of petitioning would simply have been futile. I suppose in that sense the choice wasn’t “difficult”, but the statement, like so much of what the Governor says, is intended to mislead. I regularly practice before the Patent Office and I would guess off hand that the DOT, like the Patent Office, requires candor in its proceedings. Candor this isn’t.
You’ve nailed the Governor on the “support” clause, which apparently takes effect when and if it suits him.
His comment that “It is important to note that during the initial petition process, the counties in these affected regions were forced to make their petitions not knowing for certain which time zone their neighbor counties would land in.” ranked for me thought as one the Gov’s most bald faced lies yet. While Pulaski County can make this argument in good faith there is no way in bloody hell that Knox, Daviess, Martin, Pike and Dubois can. They very clearly identified themselves as a group (with non-petitioning Perry County) and made no effort on behalf of, or argument in favor of, the inclusion of Lawrence and Sullivan Counties (the only other two counties in SW Indiana which petitioned) being included in their group. The governor’s own recommendation did not extend to Lawrence and Sullivan Counties and the Commissioners of these same counties expressed their pleasure at where the line was drawn at the time (excepting the one Dubois Commissioner who opposed the original petition). There is absolutely no plausible scenario underwhich Knox, Daviess, Martin, Pike and Dubois Counties can claim to have been surprised or to have gotten something other than exactly what they asked for.
Does anybody wonder how a large Indy law firm takes up such a case. Ice Miller LLP is no small fry. Wonder who paid for all that work?
Also my thanks to “Jim B” for adjusting his name. He did so not to confuse himself. Well my last name starts with a “B” so now he has shifted the confusion or perhaps passed it off to my weaker mind. Again, thanks.
dubious county! that is so awesome i had to pen a post in its praise.
I have been glancing over the new petition it is to say the least a stretch to say what is in what I have read so far is a pack of lies.I get 4 Evansville tv stations in Loogootee and it states the Evansville Courier is not delivered in Martin county this is funny since I get this paper and know many others in this county that get it.Something seems to be up with this new petition!
Thanks to Lou and Jim B. for your posts #35 and #41 in the previous thread. It’s interesting to get an historical perspective on when Michigan and Ohio went from Central to Eastern. I had to chuckle when I read Governor Daniels’ letter to the DOT. Dubious County indeed! Sounds like an overzealous or nonfunctioning spellchecker.
The 11/29/05 letter is here (pdf).
And Perry County, which used Dubois county’s switch to central as its rationale for doing the same, is apparently going to sit this round out.
That has to be infuriating to you about Perry County. I know your schedule works better with Perry on Eastern Time. (They’re probably too strapped from stockpiling cash to defend their indefensible medical provider Certificate of Need ordinance to spend money paying Ice Miller to petition the USDOT.)
Perry County is in a rough position all around. There is a lot of data linking its economy to Kentucky and to Spencer County, as well as ties to Dubois. Unlike Dubois though, much of the business community submitted statements of support for switching to Central Time last go around.
We are all long on anger but we come up short when it comes to having a winning strategy. This is a shame because we not only have the best arguments but I think we are seekers of truth who have the best interest of Indiana and its people at heart. Our friends Phillip and Tim Joyce desperately need our help. If we were to lose this fight in the southwest it would bode ill for all of us.
Many of our comments could be copied and submitted to the Docket. DOT needs to be aware of the inaccuracies and inconsistencies of Daniels’ statements as well as those of the county commissioners. And the more often they are reminded the better. One tactic could be to flood the Docket. DOT said they read each of the previous submissions. It was made obvious by the comments from the other side that being accurate or well written wasn’t a consideration.
If a hearing is scheduled, the more of us that attend and perhaps make presentations the better chance our side has to prevail.
To the other Jim B.- it did cross my mind that we might share the same initial and I had considered a web name such as brainboy but that would be as misleading as some of the governor’s statements since I am neither a brain or a boy.
In the August 15 editon of the Washington Times Hearld Washington Times Hearld.com one of the Daviess county commissioners talks about how the county attorneys worked on this petition no mention of the law firm from INDY which wrote this thing.Also you will notice how he says there will be no new hearings and that he expects a comment period to be issued ie possible change in time zone boudaries with a final decision in November with a switch over of midnight Jauary first I found this interesting since at the end of this new 38 page joint petition it says they wish to have this matter settled by no later than midnight Jan. 1.Sounds like a set up deal to me!
I guess I don’t know whether hearings are a mandatory part of the rulemaking process or not. But getting the rulemaking process done by January 1 wouldn’t be that much different from the speed with which the last rulemaking process was done.
Phillip-
Don’t let the Governor’s use of a large Indy law firm to build a “shock and awe” campaign stop you from fighting this. It may sound like a set up exactly because the Governor wants the proponents of Central Time to believe just that. The DOT isn’t in the Governor’s hip pocket.
Phillip-
A couple of follow on thoughts. The Daviess County’s attorney’s comments about not having a hearing would fit the ET crowd’s strategy of suppressing opposition. They know opposition is forming (for one thing, some of “those people” this read this blog) and they simply don’t want you to be organized and prepared for a hearing. Keep organizing and keep posting comments to the DOT docket (judging from their letter to Pulaski County it is clear that DOT people really do read them. Assume that there will be a hearing and prepare for it now.
And a final note of amusement. The Washington Time Herald article on the time zone issue begins:
“Ind. Gov. Mitch Daniels has sent a letter to the Acting Secretary of the U.S. Department of Transportation supporting a petition submitted Monday by five southern Indiana counties to move from Eastern to Central Time.(sic)”
Just an aside about people just not getting the time issue correct was a report on NPR this morning. They were taking a look at Indiana’s Congressional races and the discussion turned to local issues playing a part in the race. The reporter stated that folks in the 2nd District (Chocola v. Donnelly) were upset because the Governor moved many of them “from Central to Eastern.”
I don’t expect national news outlets to understand Indiana’s time issues. All they ever seem to want to do is make fun of us.
Those of us in the eastern part of the state didn’t really have any choice in what time zone we wanted. Since Indianapolis/Marion County wanted to be on Eastern time, it wouldn’t have made any sense for any of us to petition for Central. Whatever Indy wanted, we ended up with by default. :(
Doug,a few more points about the comments of the Daviess county attorney it`s as if he seems to know what the DOT is going to do before they do it when he says he “anticipates” they will study the petition for three weeks Pulaski county tuned one in June 27 and still have heard nothing and turned their first one in back in FEB and I think it was two or three months before they heard the cool response to that one.Also how he states there will be a comment period of 60 days (the last one was thirty) then a final ruling in November and switch JAN 1.This is all stated like he already knows there will be a NPRM issued.I mean if anything past history with the DOT on time zone boundaries shows us is that they do not shift them often.Also back in April the counties were first told by the DOT that each must turn in a seperate petition somehow that seemed to be waived their own rules state you must petition county by county.Maybe I`m reading too much into these comments of the Daviess county attorney but I think something smells fishy we shall see.
It was interesting to read or mostly skim through the documenation from Gov. Daniels office using the link that Paul provided.
It struck me that this is the first time the govenor had taken a leading role in time zone placement and he has put himself in the front line of the next time zone decision by DOT.Before he was trying to catch up on the time issue, and doing damage control while trying to figure why people were so upset.It’s the kind of documentation that any government agency would appreciate,and knows how to deal with, including DOT.It systematically listed the counties and examined such areas as media: newspapers,radio,TV, where were airports. Commuting patterns were enumerated by trips made (which DOT always gives high priority). There were signed letters pro-ET from employers, hospitals, school systems,media,civic and transportation organizations.
Of course all this documenation is important but it reminds me of the directives when I was a public school teacher ( or ‘5-yr plans’) as teachers called them,) coming down from Washington( or were they from Moscow?).Statistics and documentation always prove the point they were compiled for,and hopefully we will see the set of documentation that the CT compiles.
Should the question be not ‘how did these counties ‘lie’ to get put on CT, but rather ‘why are they as a group of 5 petitioning to go back to what they had so effectively petitioned against’? I think the Governor’s premise is acccurate: there was great confusion.There was no long range plan for time zone placement.( his fault but that’s a moot point now) Counties didn’t know which counties would be on CT eventually.Many looked at the process as a beginning and that gradually they thought other counties would petition for CT. Whenever anyone wrote an entry in the regional hearing docets of last Fall for CT, they almost always wrote also,’all of Indiana should be on CT’ or something to indicate meridan placement to prove Indiana was a CT state.
For many,if not most, they saw a strategy to get as many counties as possible placed in CT,so that gradually more and more would be added in subsequent petitioning.But when the final decision was made by DOT, people started to realize, THIS IS IT! They found themslves in a CT enclave divided off from the rest of the state.Now the only hope for CT is an advisory statewide referendum that would be submitted to DOT.
IT seemed that if any area of the state would be happy on CT it would be those 6 SW Indiana counties that were added to CT last winter( 5 of which are no repetitioning). But what has been better understood since in other comments in this blog is that although Evansville is unequivocally CT-oriented that orientation doesnt extend more than a county inland, except for Gibson County. Those counties want unity with the state at large rather than CT with Evansville, IF that’s their forced choice..Every county has both CT and ET allegiance but those in CT have always been the most satisfied and unified in CT and it’s downright shocking to find 5 counties banding together to get all replaced, en masse, back into ET, with the governor firmly supporting their bid. There obviously is a CT contingent also in those counties, but I surely hope they won’t dwell on the past, disorderly process,and dwell instead on what should happen now and where do these counties want to end up.
Even now people are confused as to what will happen next.Will there be hearings,etc? And I think that’s the great shame of the whole time zone debate in Indiana.The process never has been clear til it was too late to act according to what was best ,as people understood it.
Nothing has been documented about Pulaski County from the govenor’s office. .Is that coming in an addenda?
addendum
If the information in the exhibits were new the DOT might well appreciate it. But much of the documentation that the new petition provides in exhibits to the new petition is not new. For example, a substantial part (perhaps 20%) were county statistics from the STATS Indiana service. At the South Bend hearing Judy Koleta told the assembled audience that the DOT was well aware of this material and didn’t want to see it again and again.
Lou- It isn’t that the people in these counties are unhappy. The people have never had a choice on this issue so it doen’t really matter if the people are happy or not.The Indiana Chamber of Commerce has stirred up the business in these communities. There are reports that many of the commissioners have been intimidated by numerous threatening phone calls. It must be remembered these positions are strictly part time and their primary livelihood may be vulnerable to such attacks.
County comissioners should never have been put in this position. I think it was part of the strategy of the eastern advocates to place the zone issue at the structurally weakest point of the government. There have been 2 other instances in 1961 and 1968 that large portions of Indiana have been transferred from one zone to another and I am sure these moves where made without county-by-county petitions.
USDOT is the guardian of the time zones. They are surposed to protect us from ourselves and special interest groups by very judiciously placing these boundaries where they can do the least harm and can be easily recognized and predicted. The system really broke down in 1961 when the ICC yielded to the demands of a very powerful special interest coalition and split Indiana right down the middle.
I was amazed that they want the transition to take place Jan. 1st. I am sure everyone will enjoy getting up a hour early and losing sleep so they can drive to work in the dark. This proves once again the opposition’s lack of understanding.
I’d guess the county attorney was expressing a “hope” that the rule will be in place on 1 January. Time Zone Changes are almost always scheduled to occur with the change to and from DST.
A change from Central to Eastern taking place in March 2007 would involve a 2-hour jump forward (unless the legislature dumps DST). Such an order seems unlikely, which leaves November 2007 as the most probable date for a change, if any is ordered. The other possibility would be October 2006, but that seems awfully fast. The DOT took three months to consider Pulaski County’s February petition before issuing a letter asking for additional information. Suppose they take 6 weeks here for preliminary consideration of the joint petition (puts us at the end of September) and than set a 30 day comment period (now we are at the end of October). After the comment period they would draft a proposal for the Secretary to review (3 to 4 more weeks?). I don’t think they can finish that before the switch off DST.
And that being the case, they might as well sit back and watch as tear ourselves to pieces for a while. Who knows, the Second Coming may intervene and the problem would go away.
Further arguing for going slowly is the pasting they gave Pulaski County. I cannot see them just accepting the allegations of the new petition at face value, particularly in view of the character of some of the petition.
For example, in answer to the question “From where do businesses get their supplies, and to where do they ship their products?” the petition first cites figures for the state of Indiana as a whole, not the counties in question.
The petition goes on to note that if the petition is approved then the local Wal-Marts (located Washington, Vincennes and Jasper) will be in the Eastern time zone. Duh, folks. That statement is so circular in its reasoning that the diameter of the circle has collapsed to zero.
Another strange statement is this: “Jasper companies do have many customers and suppliers in the Midwest and South, which are mostly on Central time, but the dollar volume of commerce in the county is driven by customers and suppliers in the Eastern Time Zone.” What does “driven by” mean? Are they shipping engines to an auto assembly plant in Tennessee while the company HQ for the assembly plant is in Detroit? “Driven by” are weasel words. I think the DOT will see exactly that when they read this petition.
Paul,I do not understand the Daviess county attourny statement either but he said final ruling in November go to Eastern Jan 1.I love those points about Wal Mart I notice the new petition has a lot of “if`s” in it.Always saying this this and this will all be in Eastern if it is garnted.If pigs had wings they could fly!
Phillip-
It was nice to how they arranged those “if’s” in tables too. Looks nice and official that way. You are correct though, there is more than a bit of make believe in the petition.
Just a note on the Eastern time people losing a little of their fight. A local reporter told me that when she called Mrs. Lewis (The person who started the petition in Knox to go to Eastern DST.) she said that “it was out of her hands and there was nothing else she could do. Some thing also note worthy is that most of the people at the commissioners meeting in Knox County who were for changing to Eastern were old and close to retirement. Those to keep Central were mainly young. Many of these people do not even know how to get on the internet. I agree that the comments on this site need to be put on the DOT’s site. I am urging all my contacts to write the DOT and have their family and friends do the same. Several made their comments the day I sent out my first e-mail on the subject and I just sent out another plea. Please have your family and friends write also. I have alway’s thought our battle would be won with the DOT not with the commissioners.
Does anyone have information on the school bus study they spoke of? The same local reporter I spoke of earlier said that she interviewed the Vincennes Community School Corp. transportation person and he said “although he personally was for Eastern professionally he had to be for central because of safety.” A bus driver in Knox County also made a good point. He said, “if school would have been a 2 hour delay will it now be a 3 hour delay since it will take just as long to get the weather taken care of.” It made sense to me. A lot more sense then the 4 hours lost during the day because of different starting, lunch, and quiting times. Please let me know if you have info on any of this bus safety. You can contact me at stopthecommissioners@yahoo.com
Tim-
On school safety issues I would suggest you look over Mark Catanzarite’s post on the DOT docket management system (document no. OST-2005-21144-4673). It is at page 94.
Delays of over two hours generally require that the children have to make up a day under state guidelines.
On traffic flow issues into and out of your region you may want to check over document no. OST-2005-21144-3822 (page 77) which uses state traffic flow studies illustrating far more vehicle movement to and from the Evansville region and Illinois from your region than to the rest of Indiana.
Paul: You raise a good issue in comment 25 above. They talk about “dollar volume being driven by customers and suppliers in the Eastern Time Zone”. I wonder how old their data is and where it really comes from. One of the I-69 NAFTA sites mentioned that through NAFTA, Mexico had already grown to become the fourth largest trade partner with Indiana. This was back in 1999. Mexico is mostly on Central none of it is on Eastern time. All of this NAFTA stuff which was signed and supported by Clinton, and pushed hard by the Bush administration, seems geared to CST/CDT. The main NAFTA highways, the Kansas City Customs operation they are promoting, etc. The Chamber of Commerce seems not able to grasp change. Whether we like NAFTA (and now CAFTA as well) or not, it appears here to stay, and this new melding of the economies shifts the economic focus from a once eastern dominated manufacturing economy (which even without NAFTA was steadily moving south and west) to a new continental multi national economy that has a huge industrial base south west of our border.
Tim-
Do you know if hearings are going to be held?
Paul – Phillip
We should encourage DOT to reject the petition on the grounds it’s just to “iffy”.
It would be great entertainment if they tried to slap some sense into them just like they did to Pulaski
Has anyone been able to locate the so called “June 2006” Pulaski County petition? I believe that in some earlier post I provided a link this DOT posting:
http://dms.dot.gov/search/document.cfm?documentid=399249&docketid=22114
It is the 11 page letter from the DOT to Pulaski County that has been discussed. It might be helpful for those of you working on the Southwest Indiana issue to review both this letter and the February 2006 petition that Pulaski County submitted.
There are two issues here. One this that the “fix” is in and nothing can be done. However I tend to see the DOT in a different way. Judy Kaleta is a highranking career professional and I was impressed with her at both Logansport and South Bend. I would strongly suggest that a careful review of recent Pulaski County matters might help. I will also continue to search for a possible “updated” petition.
Also, on Paul’s noting of the Mark Catanzarite DOT posting. Mark is a County Council member in Saint Joseph County and a firefighter/paramedic for the South Bend Fire Department. Mark’s focus was on the safety of children and while the the DOT did not accept the overall point of his statements, they did express concern for safety.
Sometimes a review of how the DOT approaching these types of matters can prove helpful. Just remember they will always fall back on that “convenience of commerce” issue.
Can’t we just put a “Should we return to the status quo ante-Mitch?” issue on the statewide ballot? We’ve gone from the perception that we were a laughingstock because of Eastern Standard Time, to deservedly being a laughingstock over this. If I (in Perry County) drive east ten miles, north twenty miles, or northwest a couple of hours (all the way to the Illinois line) from Perry county, I have to set my watch forward an hour. There seems to be a twitch in the earth’s rotation that causes time to jump an hour down here. But I’m on the same time as west Texas, so I guess I have that going for me.
The Loogootee Tribune reports the INDY law firm Ice- Miller that wrote the joint petition for the 5 southwestern counties was hired by the Governor(state) this was stated by Martin county attorney Lett at the county council meeting.Nice huh!
I live in French Lick, I also work in Jasper. I have to be to work at 6:30 Jasper time. It is 7:30 my time. That also means when I get off work at Jasper at 2:30. It is 3:30 my time. This is not working for me. I did not ask for this daylight saving time. We in Indiana have always know what time it was. Because we never change our time. If the dept. of transportation has a problem with that maybe they need to regroup. When I first heard what time is it in Indiana, I did not understand . Because it was always the same time, It did not depend on what time of the year it was. I just wish some one would ask us the people, how we feel, before the just go a head and start making all this changes. This is really making my life a living hell. thank you Betty Breedlove
i think that all of indiana should be on eastern time . I have to get up to go to work no matter if is dark or light so big deal. I think people grow up the kids have to go to school like we go to work so who gives a hoot
we havent had any problem about it untill now They are going to do what they want so how do we know if our petitions are really getting read.anyone can get online & put in an petition from differnt county which is so fair(not)dont use my name please thanks