Courtesy of Kung Fu Monkey:
FDR: Oh, I’m sorry, was wiping out our entire Pacific fleet supposed to intimidate us? We have nothing to fear but fear itself, and right now we’re coming to kick your ass with brand new destroyers riveted by waitresses. How’s that going to feel?
CHURCHILL: Yeah, you keep bombing us. We’ll be in the pub, flipping you off. I’m slapping Rolls-Royce engines into untested flying coffins to knock you out of the skies, and then I’m sending angry Welshmen to burn your country from the Rhine to the Polish border.
U.S. NOW: BE AFRAID!! Oh God, the Brown Bad people could strike any moment! They could strike … NOW!! AHHHH. Okay, how about .. NOW!! AAGAGAHAHAHHAG! Quick, do whatever we tell you, and believe whatever we tell you, or YOU WILL BE KILLED BY BROWN PEOPLE!! PUT DOWN THAT SIPPY CUP!!
So, during WWII, US and Britan were quick to war, and now we are sitting in a corner sucking our thumb while our government tells us how scared we are?
Here I thought a group of people in the US were upset with our government for rushing into a couple nations and (to use the above Churchhill quote) sending angry rednecks in to burn the middle east from the Euphrates to the Indian border.
As long as we are comparing those leaders to today’s leaders, do you think FDR or Churchill would pull out now? It seemed to me that they had the idea that they would keep fighting until there was total victory.
They wouldn’t have invaded in the first place. Invading Iraq after al Qaeda knocked down the World Trade Center would’ve been like FDR invading Argentina after Pearl Harbor.
Correction: Invading Iraq after al Qaeda knocked down the World Trade Center was like invading Germany after Japan bombed Pearl Harbor.
And, don’t forget, FDR locked up all the scary yellow people, all of them.
No it wasn’t. Germany actually declared war on us, and that was why we invaded Europe. Iraq didn’t declare a state of war on us at all.
Also, Germany was allied with Japan. Al Qaeda and Iraq prior to our invasion — not so much.
And, don’t forget, FDR locked up all the scary yellow people, all of them.
Good point, DT. Here is a link for more info for those that were not aware. This wasn’t even like Camp X-ray, where people were captured while fighting us. These were Americans taken from their homes based on the color of their skin.
Iraq didn’t declare a state of war on us at all.
Neither did Japan, at least not before the attack.
As far as Al Qaeda and Iraq, then one fact that can’t be contested is that Saddam was giving cash to the families of suicide bombers before we invaded. While most were not Al Qaeda, he was supporting terrorism.
I agree WWII and today’s war(s) are not the same. That is why I think comparing the actions of today’s leaders and yesterday’s leaders is faulty. We knew exactly who to attack before. They had uniforms and represented the nations that attacked us. Now, a group without a nation is attacking us. It is not the same, and saying how great FDR would have been in today’s situtation is misleading.
Iraq didn’t declare a state of war on us at all.
Neither did Japan, at least not before the attack.
uh… doesn’t bombing pearl harbor itself count as a declaration of war?
Doug’s anology is right on the money provided Argentina and the surrounding regions had an asset (oil) that would make FDR’S wealthy buddies even wealthier. Somebody must have E.S.P. I was thinking about this very thing last night after I heard a discussion on XM radio about Bush’s use of the term “Islamic Fascism”. This administration is now officially grasping at straws. They realize that the majority of the public ,if they didn’t know it before, is finally waking up to the fact that the Iraq invasion/occupation (not a war) has nothing to do with the “war on terrorism”. How do you wage war on a tactic anyway?
The public realizes that Iraq was a huge diversion of resources/distraction from going after Osama (wanted dead or alive)Bin Laden and the people responsible for 9/11. This administration has used the memory of that day and frankly the 3000+ dead-1000’s injured and the understandably vengeful mood of the nation as a blank check to do whatever the hell they want. I have to wonder how the relatives feel about the way their loved ones have been used?
The whole world(back in the days before our credibility was squandered) was with us with Afghanistan. Iraq? Not so much.
This administration is so desperate to deliver a black or white, with us or against us whatever we do message to their ,frankly not to critical thinking base, they dare to make the FDR/Nazi Fascist-Bush/Islamic Fascist analogy. Well, I don’t think they want to go there. Any casual student of WWII realizes that this administration is using nazi tactics to kill any opposition ;use of fear(terror alerts), control of media and timing of terrorists arrests (England’s airline bomb plot),character assasination of any opposition(Richard Clarke,Joseph Wilson,Cindy Sheehan,John Kerry,9/11 widows…),detaining protesters at Bush rallies for wearing anti-Bush T-shirts or having anti-Bush bumper stickers-sometimes overnight.The list goes on and on.
Of course even a dumbed down nation wakes up after awhile. Billions of dollars and lives wasted in an unnecessary invasion/occupation that has done nothing for our security and in fact has emboldened other nations in the region and has become a recruiting tool/training ground for our enemies tends to do that.
History, especially the historian’s history of kings and armies, is an organized effort (or Fool’s Errand) to determine if we can adequately explain the past while it’s still fresh, before we just say “fug it” and start telling each other the lies we like best. It does the exercise and ourselves great disservice to reverse the process and proceed from comfortable anecdote without bothering to check first.
The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor is an interesting case in point. It was by no means conceived or intended as the Sneak Attack of legend; the Japanese embassy was slow in decoding and typing up the declaration of war. Ambassador Nomura was sitting in Cordell Hull’s office with the papers as the bombs began falling.
Which, of course, has nothing whatever to do with Kung Fu Monkey’s point that we’ve suffered exponentially greater risk, in the lifetime of many living Americans, without the constantly pounding tom-toms.
It’s been extremely distressing to see the raising of rhetoric to the most extreme levels simultaneous with the most trivial and disingenuous public argument imaginable. Bellicosity may salve the conscience of the comfortable non-combatant, but it does us a great deal of harm in the long run. We plant a flag in the rubble of the World Trade Center, then use it as a rallying point to support the deaths of thousands more Americans, the life-altering injuries of tens of thousands more, and the killing of untold thousands of others, most of them innocents, in an adventure we’re too lazy and ill-informed to bother examining before or since. And at long last the excuse is “Saddam gave money to suicide bombers?” If you consider the risk so grave, is it too much to ask that you give serious thought to the response?
“Neither did Japan, at least not before the attack.” It might be a little more careful to say that Japan did not deliver its declaration of war before the attack on Pearl Harbor, which was the fault of the Japanese Embassy in Washington. I understand we were intercepting and decoding the Japanese diplomatic codes and actually knew about the declaration before the attack.
Ambassador Nomura was sitting in Cordell Hull’s office with the papers as the bombs began falling
I’m sorry, but “as the bombs began falling” is the same thing as no declaration at all. Would we feel better if Osama called between plane strikes on the trade center and said “BTW, we’re declaring war on you”. I think that was made clear in the bombings in Africa during the Clinton years.
Again, my point is that the post above tells how great two leaders of WWII responded without fear and with fierce anger. How would have these great leaders handled this? Just invade (or burn) Afghanistan and declare a job well done? Or, as some have said, get Osama and out problems are over?
I hear what people are saying about how we have screwed up with many parts of this, and I do agree with some of them. However, I do not agree that FDR was fearless (US Concentration Camps), and I do not agree that we can just have a head to head war and rid ourselves of the problem. Our enemy has chosen to refused to fight that kind of battle. Normally, we would bomb cities like how we firebombed Japan to punish the population of the military we were fighting. I suppose we would attack the population of areas that have “Islamic Fascism” in an attempt to mold classic warfare like Monkey was supporting around today’s warfare.
Bush has went down two roads, premptive invasion and internal security (or raping of our rights, depending on your POV). Some disagee, and I assume would choose more deplomacy. However, that is not the road FDR and Churchill went down.
I’m not trying to debate the right / wrong of our current actions. I’m debating Kung Fu Monkey’s comparision.
However, if this was just a “Bush Sux” post, let me know and I’ll stop. :)
Ok, one more to FDR and “Fear Itself”:
I have heard this over and over to show how Bush (et. all) are trying to make the American public fearful of Islam and / or just plan scared. FDR, though, worked to make sure people were not fearful of Japan and Germany, right?
Japan (I dig the fangs)
Germany
THAT is fearing nothing but fear itself???
I can’t say as I agree with Jason’s position regarding delivery of the Japanese Declaration, at least if we knew why Nomura was there and what he had brought. Then it would be a simple matter of keeping Nomura cooling his heals until we had confirmation that the bombs were falling. Mind you, doing so was great propaganda for the time, and afforded FDR an opportunity to engage in some stirring oratory. But now, 65 years later, I think we can afford to put the matter a little more into perspective.
Besides, it looks like the pan calling the kettle black. We certainly took advantage of a lack of knowledge of a state of war existing between ourselves and the British during the War of 1812 to grab a few British merchantmen.
You are mixing apples and oranges.. the “NOthing to fear but fear itself” reference for FDR was from his First Inaugural speech in 1933 — yes– 8 years before Pearl Harbor. It was an attempt to turn around America’s self-confidence during the beginning of the Great Depression.
Thanks for the correction, Randy!