I originally checked into the Time Zone Docket to check out a referral to a submission by Rocky Byrd but couldn’t help but laugh at the document entitled “Dubious County Visitors Center”. The folks down in Dubois County just get no respect.
Anyway, Mr. Byrd has made a couple of submissions on the subject of the recent petition of southwestern Indiana counties to change back to Eastern Time. The first is a concise letter pointing out the magnitude of Governor Daniels flip-flop on these counties. The second is a longer paper (12 pages) that dissects the petition itself and points out errors therein. In particular, he notes that the influence of Evansville in the region is routinely omitted. According to Mr. Byrd, there appears to be a lot of bootstrapping going on in the petition, meaning that in several instances the petition suggests that commerce or aspects of community life are done interacting with areas that will be in the Eastern Time Zone if the petition is granted. Of course, this is just a fancy way of saying that those areas are in the Central Time Zone right now. Anyway, it’s worth a read.
The holes,misrepresentations and circular logic in the joint petition of the counties in southwest Indiana is pathetic.Tim Joyce is also working hard on a counter petition and I have no doubt it will also be as Mr.Byrds a better written document than the one turned in by the counties.
I love it when economic developement director and republican candidate for state Rep of district 63(Crooks seat) states Wal Marts distribution center in Seymour needs to be on the same time as area Wal Marts.Come on the Wal Marts around her are open 24hrs a day 7 days a week and somehow Mr.Arnold for got to mention the even larger Wal Mart distribution center in Olney Illinois.
If you look at the numbers and facts in Mr.Byrds submission and compare the to the counties petition and sttements made by commissioners last year if the DOt does a honest study they will see the new petition has no merit.It`s simlpy a lot of “What ifs” and alot of chances for the attorneys from INDY to write down Eastern.Althogh their columns and tables look very impressive!
I know I keep making a big deal out of the fact that this petition on page 8 states the Eville Courier is not delivered to Martin county but as you can see in Mr.Byrds submission where he called the circulation manager of the Courier IT`S A LIE not careful wording or omission just a plain LIE!
Does anybody know how those attorney’s got paid ? Was it the taxpayer’s dime ?
When will USDOT or the Govenor’s office outline the process of handling these re-petitions? Hopefully whatever final decision is made will be made on basis of pro-CT or Pro-ET arguments.Also,since a time zone line WILL be drawn somewhere within Indiana where would it be least obtrusive? A comparatively unobtrusive division of time zones would be a great aid to commerce.The big question: where is the comparative greatest unification for these counties: with Evanville or with the rest of the state..? hopefully this is neutral stance.
Lou,I would like your opinion on this.Where would you draw the line?My feeling is the whole mess could have been avoided and caused the least trouble for everyone if the Governor would have kept his word and asked the DOT to move the whole state to the Central time zone except for three counties near Cincinatti and Louisville who have always observed EDT in effect being on a different time than most of the state for almost 7 months out of the year.
This makes the most sense since there were already two enclaves of counties near Evansville and Chicago on Central time.
Jason, (Thanks for asking)’
I would draw the TZ where it causes the least amount of incovenience for the largest amount of people and that has always been my position no matter where anybody draws any time line anywhere. CT for all of Indiana was never a possible outcome for any of these processes,yet it always seems to part of the debate and people have been confused as to options at hand in the process (IMO) Im not sure where to draw the line,but I would tend to defer to where it was for 30 odd years.It’s my impression ,as a non-Indiana resident,that Evansville is less a magnet for these 5 counties than the rest of the state and Indianapolis. And it’s one or the other.Otherwise we can suppose the line would have already been drawn where it was put last year,and it wasn’t. I hope there’s a very thorough hearing with all facts and opinions put out on the table.The final decision has to be seen as fair and impartial.I think USDOT will be fair,but I also think they will put considerable weight on what Govenor Daniels recommends ,and that alone will seem unfair to many.. Whoever loses will be VERY upset.Whoever wins will shrug it off as finally settled(maybe).
I have no special expertise on the time zone issue generally,but I have always been interested in time and clocks and I collect antique maps.Also Indiana is part of my history growing up near Indiana in Illinois,and I always remember time being an issue when we drove to Indianapolis.
Again, I’ll ask how did those attorneys get paid. I think that’s relevant considering the upcoming elections.
I’m reasonably sure the attorneys are being paid out of the budgets of the petitioning counties.
Lou,if you study Mr.Byrds counter petition you will see and can not possibly say if the line is put back where it was it will cause the least amount of inconvenience for people. The numbers of incoming and out going work commuters for the counties causes the least inconvenience now.Try to also remember the old boundary was a completely different animal under Eastern Standard time than it would be under Eastern Daylight time where instead of being disconnected from Evansville and the other 5 counties that have always been on Central time for a little over 5 months a year it would be year round!Evansville is the third largest city in Indiana not some turn around in the road as the petition wants people to believe and it`s influence in my part of the state is far greater than Indianapolis.People run to Evansville around here all the time and to INDY very little.INDY is almost twice as far from here in Loogootee as Evansville is.
I do agree with you that I hope the counter petitions and all opinions will be studied not just a questionable petition by the counties that is completely full of hloes.As for the Governor his opinion will be given a lot of weight I`m sure which is unfortunate since he has had too many positions to keep track of and contradicts himself every time he writes a letter or opens his mouth on this subject.
The reason Central time for the whole state is always a part of this debate is this is what the Governor stated many times in his run for Governor of this state and he could have recomended this to the DOT last year but special interests kept him from doing this and if you think it won`t be mentioned when he runs again your mistaken.
People around here hold people to their word and when they lie they usually do not get re-elected.Martin County Commissioner John Collins found that out last May and Troy Woodruff will also find this out in November.
Phillip,
All these commuter displacements of people are very important,and if there are new trends and they will be presented to USDOT .I dont have many facts.I judge mostly on where populated vs rural areas are,and historic preference.It’s an academic study for me,but for people ( like you) who live there it’s personal and part of daily life.
Chuck, I exchanged several e-mails with Mitch and he admitted that the stated gave financial help to these counties legal cause. When I asked him about the misleading statements, he e-mailed back “Did you read in tonight’s paper that we have already created more jobs this year then we did last year. Are these the misleading statement you are referring to.” I simply said no and told him I was referring to the petition. I also noted that if he was talking about the Indy Star that I did not read it, I only read the Vincennes Sun-Commercial and the Evansville Courier both of which was highlighted in Knox County’s original petition. He decided to end the e-mails after that.
We have been looking at this from an Indiana perspective. Let’s look instead to what’s best for the country. This time zone boundary line that passes through Indiana is one of only 3 such lines in the adjacent 48 states. The USDOT has been given the authority and responsibility to place these lines having regard for the convenience of commerce. I am happy everyone has begun to realize that a boundary line is incapable of doing “good†and can only cause problems not solve them. The best anyone can do is to place them where they will do the least harm because boundary lines are a necessary evil if we are to have time zones.
The least harm is done when these lines are placed where they create the least confusion.
Commerce is conducted between time zones thousands of times a day with very few problems as long as the parties recognize the time differences. I submit that it’s impossible for an outsider to predict where the boundary is in Indiana. The more he knows about time zones the less likely it would make sense to him. Keep in mind this boundary line separates the central zone from the eastern for the entire nation and for that matter the world. Take a look at Indiana’s eastern border. It is a perfect straight line. Then compare it to the gerrymander line that now exists. Which one is the least confusing? Keep in mind this straight line was the boundary before 1961. Lou this line was not moved by a popular movement but by a powerful special interest coalition for very selfish reasons. It would be in the nation’s best interest for the boundary to be moved back to Indiana’s eastern border where it would be more understood and predictable. I am still waiting for someone to give a good reason why it shouldn’t be.
Thanks for your input Doug and Tim. Imagine that;using the constituents money to further a cause (eastern time) that the majority of the people are against. I’ll have to do some research to make sure this is the case.
To me , this issue defines “Bait and switch” Mitch and his lies and deception more than anything else-even more than the toll road fiasco.
I wish the Dems would concentrate on this issue as much as the toll road because we’re all living this lie (eastern time) and it affects us everyday. I know I will not sit still until this abomination of the democratic process is corrected.
Regime change – Indiana starts now!
Jim B
I do disagree on one point.From what Ive found there was a movement in eastern Indiana to conform with Ohio and Michigan and in 1961 the state moved to legalize it by moving eastern Indiana to ET.So the state was playing catch-up with this populist movement from my understanding.Maybe we should research into just which kind of Hoosiers were pushing for ET at that time;that was never clear,but it wasn’t state government to begin with. The term ‘special interests’ is either positive or negative.Those who want CT for Indiana are a ‘special interest group’,as well as those who want ET.( so many politicians now are using the term ‘special interest groups’ as a kind of code word,but that’s another issue)
Phillip
Just a thought on the effect of DST on these re-petitioning counties. Before DST these counties were always the same time as Indianapolis as well as the rest of the state now they never are.It’s interesting to look at the Indiana map and see how Indianapolis has outpost cities extending their TZ preference.Bloomington, Terre Haute, and Lafayette form almost a perfect wall of time outposts to keep CT from encroaching any farther toward the center of state.The rural areas in between would gladly ignore Indy’s time ,but not the cities. That’s why we instinctively think ‘city’ for ET and ‘county’ for CT. Knox,Daviess, and Martin Counties are already as near,or nearer to Terre Haute and Bloomington as they are to Evansville,and if we look at these cities as ‘greater Indianapolis’ then we see why there might be a conflict.If it were not for Terre Haute and Lafayette being where they are perhaps all the western part of Indiana would be CT.
Lou,this is the only point I conceed to the Eastern time supporters that it is a burden being seperated from the rest of the state not this nonsense of needing to be in line with the East Coast as all these businesses always harp about because as I have stated many times they have been 1 hour behind the East Coast almost 7 months a year anyway for over thirty years.
As for Terre Haute and Bloomington their effect on southwest Indiana is far less than Eville and most residents in the counties re-petitioning do their business within the zone of counties themselves and Eville but your point is well taken about the distances from Martin,Daviess,and Knox counties.
The reason special interest is thrown around by many of us is that it was a group of powerful,wealthy and influential group of Dubois county people and businesse owners who,squeezed coerced and threatened county commissioner President John Burger from Dubois county to change his vote from Central to Eastern.This has been stated overe and over by people in Dubois county and from the state Senator from are area off the record.
Burger spoke on tv,at the DOT Jasper hearing and in numerous newspaper articles in favor of Central time.The same evidence being presented now by the Chamber of Commerce and these businesses was presented at the Jasper hearing and commissioner Burger stood firm.It was only a few months after the decision after this group had time to work on him and his family and I mention his family since his kids were bothered at school last Spring over this and after a visit to the hospital that commissioner Burger finally folded!
This is why I say special interests.Through polls and call ins to the court house in Dubois county last year and public meetings the people from Dubois county overwhelmingly preferred Central time commissioners Burger and Fleck felt so strongly about it they turned in a additional 17 pages of info to bolster the counties case.Yet as always in politics the wealthy money people who contribute large amounts of cash to political campaigns get their way and people like Tim Joyce who probably does not have thousands of dollars to throw at a political candidate gets the shaft as do the majority of people in Dubois county who through everything I mentioned above want Central time.So yes I call those people special intersts groups.
But still cant a commissioner choose who he chooses to obey? I assume any commissioner who voted ,voted for the public good as he saw it and voted his conscience.I guess I see myself categorized anonymously all too often as a ‘special interest’ and one of the evil people of society because I was a public school teacher and I was, and am, a card carrying member of NEA. Here I am this ‘evil person’ living on a teacher’s pension LOL it’s really funny!
There is nothing illegitimate about a board of commissioners hiring an attorney to assist it in petitioning the USDOT on the time zone issue, regardless of what you might think of the board’s policy decisions on the time zone issue.
Constituents may, for example, disagree with a board of commissioner’s decision to build or repair a particular bridge; but there is nothing wrong with the commissioners hiring an engineer or contractor to get the work done.
Politically it probably doesn’t look especially good to go to Indy to hire a lawyer on an issue like this. But that’s an issue to be resolved at the ballot box. Legally I don’t think there is any problem at all.
Again, Doug has hit the nail on the head. I took note that Pulaski County also used Ice Miller for their latest effort. While the public may not like it, may wish to question who made the decision to hire them, and how much were they paid, I see nothing illegal. There is a good four letter word that can resolve this: VOTE
I never said there was anyting illegal about hiring the INDY law firm to do their work for them.If you will look back into this blog I think you will see where I said they would have to hire someone to write a petition for them as they are not capable and although I am biased for Central time the document that was produced by Ice-Miller was a joke.It`s full of “IFS” and columns and tables that gave them a chance to write Eastern a lot.
You could just as easily write Central in every column and table in that document except of course when you are talking about the rediculous comments about some AM radio station in Indianapolis that you couldn`t pick up down here if you tried!
Now I have almost no doubt the double talking man of many positions on the issue Governor,Business community in Dubois county and the Chamber of Commerce will get their way and the DOT will reverse themselves and probably say the counties are best served being on the same time as most of the state instead of regional unity and show thmselves to be nothing but a puppet waiting to see which string the Governor chooses to pull this time so they will know which way to move!
The better question is why should citizens take time out to go to public meetings comment to commissioners,and the DOT if when a few hundered people plus the influential from each county complain if the whole process from which a decision was made last year is voided because they weren`t paying attention last year and had their heads buried in the sand!Hopefully I will be wrong about all of this and the DOT will not reverse themselves in less than a year.I guess we will see.
Philip
How has this commissioner Burger from Dubois County explained publically his switched vote for ET? He surely must have to give his rationale..Im sure he didnt say he was coerced,did he? Also what did the other commissioners for the other 4 counties say publically about their vote change? These must be all the same commissioners who voted CT orginally,arent they?
Lou,commissioner Burger stated that he changed his vote because the business interests wanted Eastern time.The problem with this statement is that many business interests and the Chamber of Commerce were at the November DOT Jasper hearing in November and argued for Eastern time while commissioner Burger made a strong argument for Central time and paid no attention to them.He was quoted in the local as well as INDY Star and Eville Courier and appeared on local TV stations supporting Central time
In the local Dubois county paper the Hearld in a March article he continued supporting Central and stated the few hundered people in Dubois county who want Eastern time was a result of a new effort from the local Chamber of Commerce and the county was sticking with Central.The pressure mounted and State Senator Lindel Hume stated off the record while passing through Loogootee last Spring said the influential in Dubois county are going to change Burgers position turns out he was right!
As for the other commissioners in my county Martin which was a 2-0 vote Mike Dant who spoke for Central at the Jasper hearing abstained didn`t really say anything except that they thought the majority wanted Eastern time.The majority they speak of consisited of 150 people from out of county who work at Crane and around 150 residents from the eastern edge of the county at a February time meeting at the 4-H building.
Same thing in Daviess county they said it appeared now the majority of people want Eastern time which was around 250 people who showed up at a time meeting in March.3-0 vote
Again same situation in Knox county only one of the commissioners said petitioning for Central time was right when they did now it wasn`t.If you can figure out this statement your smarter than I am.Tim Joyce was at that meeting and can speak of it better than I.
I have no knowledge of the Pike county situation.
What you had last Winter and early Spring is what Mr.Byrd spoke of in his counter petition on the docket whcih was a group of business people and unhappy Crane workers that would be living in one time zone and working in another and some from the counties themselves in that situation that went from county to county saying they wanted Eastern time.
The reason Mr.Byrd and I speak negatively about the Crane workers in our submissions is that these people, and I have a sisiter and brother in law who work at the Base and live in the Eastern time zone is that they only ever mention their inconvenience never what would happen to citizens of Martin county who may have some of the problems they talk about with living in one time zone and working in another it`s always them.
The Crane Base is located almost completely in Martin county but most of these Crane workers around 3000 enter from the Bloomington gate.They never do business or spend money in Martin county .In short they do not enhnace business or the local economy.This is a small county.These people go back to their counties and do business in places like Bloomington,Bedford,Linton, Bloomfield.Crane employs 600 from Martin county and around 1100 more from Daviess and Dubois counties in the Central time zone who do pass through the county mainly Loogootee.
I was at Good Samaritan Hospital in Knox County today with my wife, who was having surgery, and I had a little time to study the petition and take some notes. Here is something I found quite interesting. On page 22 of the petition for Knox County under “Major elements of the community’s economy” it states that “Healthcare(Good Samaritan Hospital) and education are the two largest employers of Knox County.” Then on page 30 it more or less says that if people need to go to a specialty Hospital you must go to Indianapolis or Louisville. We have many great specialist at Good Samaritan. One of which operated on my wife today. Why would we take away from our number one industry and send the customers else where. Also, on page 29 in the table for Primary Hospitals it list Lawrence County Memorial as Eastern. Lawrence County Memorial is in Lawrencville, IL. Last time I checked they were on Central. How could a commissioner in Knox County not know an IL hospital was on Eastern time. Yet, Jim Bobe signed off on it. Kind of sounds like the Evansville Courier not being delivered in Martin County. It is a pure lie. I hope the DOT holds these commissioners liable. Does anyone know how you can get a commissioner out before his term is up? Can you petition or what?
Phillip,
You’ve really given a series of good insights into the thinking of someone who lives in SW Indiana.Now let’s hope someone announces what will happen next,when and where.
Lou,
If the DOT studies and compares the counties joint petiton with the counter petitions from Mr.Byrd from Martin county,Ms.Miller from Dubois county and soon Mr.Joyce from Knox county they will see the joint petition has not met the criteria for a time zone change because remember the DOT already said the counties proved they belonged in the Central time zone last year.
Heres my feeling on the matter.The DOT suggested last May when it denied Pulaski counties first attempt to change time zones again that they use a third party to write the petition.Enter Governor Daniels who recomends Ice-Miller from Indianapolis for the counties joint petition of the southwest counties and Pulaski county.
Now Pulaski counties first petition which was sent in in February and was not answered by the DOT until May was around a 2 1/2 month wait and not posted to the docket until then.The new petition for Pulaski prepared by Ice-Miller was sent in June 27.Now all of the sudden after the Southwest counties tun their petition at the begining of August both are immediately posted to the docket which makes me think things are moving this fast for a reason.Although as Doug pointed out a while back the first process in 2005 moved quickly also.Maybe I`m reding too much into this but it is my opinion this decision has been made,the fix is in and were just going to go through the motions of a NPRM and comment period and the petitions will be granted.
If you look at the history of time zone boundary changes in Indiana you will see the DOT is always very reluctant to change these boundaries and if they do it so soon after making a final ruling in January 2006 not a year after holding statewide hearings and issuing a 18 page final ruling one would have to come to the realization that it is being done no matter what the evidence suggests but rather by the urging of the Governor.
I hope you will agree with me at least on this point:I do not think it is ethical for this law firm who wrote the petitions to tell lies in it.The first about the Evansville Courier not being delivered to Martin county and by the way has a circulation in the Southwest counties petitioning of over 12,000 copared to the Indianapolis Star of just over 5,000.The second as pointed out by Mr.Joyce in the above post about the petition listing the Lawrence Memorial hospital in Illinois for heavns sake as being in Eastern time if the petition is granted.
I realize their job is to represent their clients and put forth a argument for Eastern time but lies are lies.What does it say about commissioner Dant from Martin county and commissioner Bobe from Knox county who signed their name to a document they did not read?
Someone said yesterday the answer is to vote.We did vote commissioner Collins out in Martin county in May but if the boundary is changed again I feel this will be it unless the legislature gets involved and by the time the other commissioners run it will be too late.
I have voted in every election since I became eligible to vote and have always followed local,state and national issues and consider myself a informed person but if this decision is reversed I will know why and seriously consider joining the millions in this country who do not vote since I will be able to see the point many of them make which is the government and both parties are controlled by the lobbyist,influence peddlers,and the wealthy!
I suspect the Governor can expect a big fat donation from the law firm Ice-Miller for steering some business toward them!
Phillip-
Ice Miller had other inducements to undertake this work. To quote from their own website:
“In the first six months of 2006, Ice Miller served as bond counsel on issues totaling over $3.6 billion in principal amount”
“Ice Miller has served as bond counsel and special counsel to state and local governments since 1910. Each year, Ice Miller approves 250 to 430 municipal financings with a total principal amount of up to $6.5 billion. Ice Miller served as bond counsel for the Indianapolis Waterworks, Circle Centre, Clarian Health Partners, the Indiana Municipal Power Agency and as counsel for the Indiana Stadium and Building Authority and the Indiana Finance Authority for Major Moves.”
http://www.icemiller.com/news_detail/id/168/index.aspx
As a piece of evidence on Indiana’s commercial contacts out of state, Ice Miller has three out of state offices: Washington, DC; Chicago, Illinois; and Naperville, Illinois. By a 2 to 1 margin these favor Central Time.
http://www.icemiller.com/
If the decision is reversed it will have been USDOT who did it.However ‘unity’ is defined will determine where the line is drawn. Each advocacy mantain they want Indiana united in time,but theres no consensus on what that means,so thats what USDOT Is for..to examine it all . I’ll be driving up through Evansville on Tueday on the bypass and then up 41/63 to I-74 and into Illinois and will note if the ground is shaking!Ive haven’t driven that route in a while.
Tim – Phillip Let me present some facts that demonstrate just how absurd it is for DOT to even consider putting Knox and Martin counties into the Eastern zone. Loogootee is only 168 miles (air miles) to the center of the Central zone and almost 4 times as far, 642 miles, to the center of the Eastern zone. It would be even more of a distortion to transfer Vincennes which is located on the border with Illinois and only 134 miles to the Central center and 5 times as far, 676 miles, to the Eastern center. In DOT’s ruling they made light of the geographical reasoning many of us presented. They chose instead to base their ruling on the very ambiguous “having regard for the convenience of commerce†clause. At some point geography has to trump “convenience of commerceâ€. Doing otherwise makes a travesty of the time zone system which is based on location. Taking the logic that zones should be based on commerce to the extreme could result in the entire country being in one zone. To place these counties in the Eastern zone because of Indianapolis would be unfair because Indianapolis is geographically located in the Central zone but has been transferred to the Eastern zone by the federal government.
This is not the first time the western counties have been yanked around. In 1966 the U.S. Congress passed the much needed “Uniform Time Act†to eliminate the checker board observance of Daylight Savings Time. This Act gave the newly formed Department of Transportation the responsibility for administering the law which required each state to uniformly observe DST or the state could excuse itself from DST altogether. This law was amended in 1972 to allow the states split by boundary lines to observe DST in one zone and Standard time in the other. But this was too late for Indiana which had been divided 5 years before. The Eastern counties were on Standard time and didn’t want EDT and the Central counties were on DST and didn’t want Standard the year round.
April 26, 1967 Governor Roger Branigin petitioned DOT to place all of Indiana in the Central Standard Time Zone. This deferred the observance of the new law for one year. During this the rest of 1967 DOT spent a lot of time in the state trying to solve this problem. In January 1968, the Department announced it was transferring 36 more counties to the Eastern Zone making a grand total of 79 Eastern and 13 Central. The 36 counties, including Knox, Daviess and Martin had agreed to this compromise in a spirit of state unity with the understanding that none of the 79 would have to observe EDT. 2005 was not the first time DOT had denied an Indiana Governor’s petition. As far as I know no hearings were held. I believe the Indiana Chamber of Commerce was involved in the process because it would have been out of character for them not to be. It also contradicts DOT’s 2005 rationale for rejecting Governor Daniels petition for a state wide review because it was too broad and that such reviews were normally on a county-by-county basis.
Don’t go away. It gets more interesting. A group of Indianapolis television broadcasting companies filed suit in the Indianapolis U.S. District Court against Alan Boyd, Secretary of Transportation, for not enforcing the 1966 Uniform Time Act. The plaintiffs were represented (you got to hear this) by Harry T. Ice and James Hawes, Ice, Miller, Donadio & Ryan, Clarence H. Doninger, William F. Welch, and Patrick Smith. Judge Holder ruled in favor of the plaintiffs in July 1968. He admonished DOT that they could not allow Indiana to break the law by not enforcing the Uniform Time Act.
The 1969 General Assembly (they were only in session in the odd years) passed a law that placed the state on Standard time. Governor Whitcomb vetoed the bill and much of Indiana did observe EDT in 1969 and 1970. This was one year before Michigan did. We can only wonder if Indiana was on EST when Michigan had their referendum would the results have been different. The 1971 General Assembly overrode Whitcomb’s veto and with the 1972 amendment to the 1966 Act Indiana settled into the arrangement we had until this year when we started EDT.
I hope this has helped everyone to understand the issue better. The TV companies’ suit in 1968 tends to confirm my suspicions that they promoted the split in 1961 but I don’t know to what extent they were involved in the 2005 EDT law being passed. But it does explain why our side has a difficult time being heard.
Phillip – Tim I think it would help your case to point out the difference in distances between eastern and central. Also you might complained to the DOT about being double crossed in 1968 and that you hope it doesn’t happen again.
Thanks to Paul for putting me onto the 1968 law suit. Paul, I hope I got the facts right.
Just to amplify a bit:
The DOT explicitly stated that it would not compel Indiana to follow the UTA while the time zone petition was pending:
“The Department’s practice has been to defer consideration of court enforcement actions while (as is the case here) a properly instituted administrative time zone boundary proceeding is pending before the Department. The practice will be followed here.”
Quoted from a letter from John Robson to Sen. Birch Bayh. The law suit was essentially for injunctive relief to compel the DOT to enforce the UTA. If you read the UTA you have to wonder why Time-Life Broadcasting had standing to bring the suit, but as I recall, that issue was not raised.
In the course the administrative process the DOT recommended that the State move to Eastern time and NOT observe DST as a solution to the Indiana time problem. Again quoting Robson:
“Final Resolution. The Department is continuing to collect and analyze information in its administrative proceeding in order to be in a position to arrive at the most informed judgment. By the time the Indiana legislature next meets we should have taken final administrative action. This will enable the Indiana legislature to properly consider and vote upon the question of exempting the state from daylight time.”
The entire letter is reproduced at:
http://tenskwatawasprophecy.blogspot.com/2005_10_01_tenskwatawasprophecy_archive.html
Finally, Indiana did not observe DST in 1971. Legally the Central Time Zone Counties were exempted from DST for that one year (putting them an hour behind Chicago), though the law was written to exclude them from the exemption should Congress amend the UTA to allow partial exemption of a state. That occurred in 1972. The Central Time Zone counties ignored the exemption during 1971.
I always thought it interesting that for all the effort to paint Hoosiers as some sort of backward hicks because we didn’t observe Daylight Saving, it wasn’t even our idea.
Paul,Jim B.
Thanks for the info.I had heard some about this on a meet your lawmakers segment last year during the end of the state legislative session on PBS.
Lou,
The DOT did decide this a little over 7 months ago.After five months,22 hours of public hearing testimony and more than 6000 comments the DOT announces FINAL RULE on state of Indiana time zone boundary.Quoting former Transportation Secretary Mineta “This rule reflects careful consideration of every comment we received”
While the Department`s proposed rule did not approve requests for changing the time zones for Daviess,Dubois,Martin and Pulaski counties,subsequent information provided by the counties and RESIDENTS supported the case for moving the counties to the Central time zone.
Phillip,
Maybe Hoosiers would look to change your system of ‘county board commissioners’Everyone seems to be following the procedure laid out in this re-petitioning process so it must be ‘democracy in action’. But it’s also true that democracy can be limited by any process,and there are always power brokers ready to pummel the weak spot..One changed vote in key counties and we might have an entirely different outcome .Remember one very bitter fight. What if St Joseph County commissioners has voted 2-1 the other way,not to petition for CT? None of the St-Josesh-Elkhart controversy would have come to light for debate.It was all due to one vote. I think this system sets commissioners up for personal attack.The 3rd vote in a vote of three is like a little god. Foreign gods are never recognized.
Some states have ‘county boards’ to look into such issues.
Okay Lou let’s change to a system of a single county official. Now let’s look at the St. Joe/ Elkhart time debate. If Steve Ross would have been the St. Joe official we would have had the same controversy since he is the most pro-central commissioner. If Mark Dobson was the single official we would not have had any controversy since he was the most pro-eastern. If Cindle Bodle was the single official who knows since she was pro-central in vote, but told Judy Koleta that unity was important. The big question in this debate would have been if we would have had a single county official in Elkhart that would have held a public meeting.Instead of the theatrics of Mike Yoder at the time zone hearings.
Make the county commissionners a larger group,not a smaller one. Time zone recommendation isnt the only issue they handle,but it surely brought out out the weakness of this 3-member county commission system. Maybe making them a group of 5? At least in this way, a 3-2 split would put two people on the losing side,and a 4-1 vote would appear more definitive.My point was that all through the time zone county by county petitions there were many 2-1 votes,some one way, some the other.
Maybe,as posted above, the Dems will take over Indiana legislature and then we might have a statewide vote on CT vs ET preference. That would be very interesting and might lead to a new state-wide push for CT. USDOT would take the results and would use them as they see fit. Maybe all the people will finally speak at one time,and they will know in advance what scenario theyre voting for..it may be too late or it may not.It will depend on politics and how upset people remain into next year.
There has mention previously that Marion County follows a system all their own,which never has been explained for those of us who dont already know what it is. All counties must operate under same rules,it would seem.
My point is that it would be the same no matter how many people you had on the board of commissioners. If your stance on the issue, no matter what the issue, falls on the short side you are going to be upset in any 3/2 or 4/1 vote. Besides , that is what we have a county council for which is a larger group. I think it is either a 7 or 9 member group. In the case of St. Joe and the time debate the councils choice was central time. Either 3-4 or 5-4.
There seems to be increased activity on the DOT’s docket 22114 regarding the time zones in Indiana complete with references to “Dubious” County. Looks like Philip, Tim Joyce, Deborah Miller and others have really done their homework in debunking the myths parlayed in the re-petition. Hope the DOT gives serious consideration to your points. Sort of reminds me about the priest, the rabbi, and the minister who are out in a boat in the middle of a lake. The priest says, “I’m thirsty. I’m going to get something to drink.” So he steps out of the boat, walks across the water to shore, gets a soda, walks back across the water and gets back in the boat. The minister says, “I’m thirsty too.” So he walks across the water to shore, gets a soda and walks back to the boat. The rabbi says, “My turn.” He gets out of the boat and immediately sinks. The priest turns to the minister. “Think we should’ve told him where the rocks were?”
Sorry Phillip for misspelling your name as Philip in post #33, makes me almost as bad as “Dubious” County! Take care buddy, and keep up the good work.
The ‘bootstrapping’ argument makes perfect sense to me. None of these 5 counties will be moved separately,and all will ‘go’ or ‘stay’ as a group of 5 ( we assume).Had only one of these 5 counties not opted to ban together there would be no hearings for re-petition. So the question is: Will all of these 5 counties be united with the time to their South,or will they all be aligned with to time to their North? There would be no change among them,and that should be pointed out as an important consideration.I don’t know if that argument will convince DOT, but it seems an obvious argument. The approach for both sides is ‘unity through time’ .
Mitch will do everything in his power to get these counties moved to align with the north. Why do I say this, that way you will not see any talk of a possible southern progression of central time. A time zone line as stated before falls into the NIMBY factor. So put it where it does the least harm and causes the least amount of progression. Why do you think Elkhart was so adamant about keeping the time zone line away from their county. Yes, I am still mad about that one. Point being if those five counties in the south stay central counties that border them could in theory decide to petition for central time. The whole thing is just a mess if you ask me.
Larry,Good point about time zone progression and being a border county.
I found this statement by the DOT in the final 61 page report of the final ruling last year and written again in a COLD response to Pulaski counties first petition to return to Eastern time:
DOT RECOGNIZES THE IMPORTANCE OF REGIONAL CONNECTIONS AND BENEFITS OF SIMILAR TIME ZONES AND REGIONAL TIES AMONG COUNTIES.REMAINING IN THE SAME TIME ZONE AND MAINTAINING THEIR REGIONAL TIES BETTER POSITION COUNTIES TO REALIZE ADVANTAGES IN ECONOMIC,CULTURAL,SOCIAL AND CIVIC ACTIVITIES THERE BY SERVING THE CONVENIENCE OF COMMERCE.
Now since all the counties re-petitioning are in the same workfore and Indiana economic developement region and the Evansville commerce region and this is exactly what local commissioners from the area argued last year at the DOT Jasper hearing the new joint petition does not make the case to move the counties back to Eastern time so soon after a final ruling for convenience of commerce sake since as DOt stated to Pulaski county in their first attempt to change back that the county had not had enough time to experience the new time zone to make the decision to re-petition so soon.Neither did the southwest couties.Most voted to re-petition before DST even took effect!
Another point worth mentioning about how this process may not exactly be on the up and up is that the DOT gave Pulaski county until the end of June to present another petition which they did submit June 27.Somehow the southwest counties were given until the first few weeks of August to submit theirs and in the beginning of this process before the Governor got involved the counties were told they had to submit seperate petitions and could not submit a joint petition.This whole process sounds more and more suspect as it progresses!
Thanks for the info. I live in England and have been teaching geography to my son and we where talking about time zones and it got me thinking about working on the boarder of a time zone. My it must be very odd, so you have to keep readjusting your time live in one zone work in another…any info would be great…..