Rep. Jerry Torr, who spearheaded the legislative effort to put Indiana on Eastern Daylight Time, wrote a letter to the editor entitled Thanks for DST support; now support amendment. As you may recall, after 30 years of continuous effort, Daylight Saving Time proponents finally succeeded, by the thinnest possible margin, in putting Indiana on DST. They were successful by only one vote in the Indiana House of Representatives, and that success came after a number of parliamentary maneuvers that gave the DST bill more lives than Rasputin and then they had to flip Troy Woodruff who had promised his constituents he would “never” vote for Daylight Saving Time. Woodruff lost his job in the next election, but Daylight Saving Time is still with us. Rep. Torr would now like the federal government to prevent DST opponents from being able to change Indiana’s time choice through the General Assembly.
In his letter to the editor, he represents that Senator Bayh congratulated Celadon CEO Steve Russell’s award of “Global Business Person of the Year” by the World Trade Club. In the course of Bayh’s remarks, he apparently mentioned Russell’s involvement in moving Indiana to Daylight Saving Time. I do not know whether Bayh explicitly endorsed DST, but Rep. Torr asserts that Sen. Bayh has declared DST a good thing for Indiana. Be that as it may, that is the unremarkable part of Rep. Torr’s letter. The more remarkable aspect is this:
I would also like for the senator to consider amending the Uniform Time Act to repeal the “Indiana exception” so that no future General Assembly could put Indiana in the same convoluted time-zone configuration of the past.
Got that? Having gotten what he wanted, by the thinnest of margins and without any particular consensus among the citizens of Indiana, he wants to take decision making about Indiana time out of the hands of Hoosiers.
I like Rep. Torr. I got to know him a bit during my time with the General Assembly. He is a smart, affable guy. And, while I disagree with his preference for Eastern Daylight Time, this is a subject on which folks can very reasonably disagree. But, encouraging the federal government to take power away from Hoosiers to solidify his side’s advantage only now that his side has gained the upper hand after 3 decades of trying, strikes me as dirty pool.
Also, it bears mentioning, that the “Indiana Exception,” as Senator Torr calls it was largely the work of Senator Evan Bayh’s father, Birch Bayh. Without that exception as part of the compromise, if memory serves, much of Indiana would have remained in the Central Time Zone. This amounts to a 30 year bait and switch. Put most of Indiana in the Eastern Zone so that, with the “Indiana Exception” the state could functionally be on year round Central Daylight Time (even if you labeled it “Eastern Standard Time”), then get rid of the ability to be on one time year around and leave Indiana on what amounts to “double daylight time” for 7+ months out of the year.
[tags]DST[/tags]
Doug,
This part of your post bears repeating.
Rep. Torr: SLIMY
Braden Robinson’
Couldn’t agree more!Politicians are constantly trying to cut we the people out of the process and force feed us what they think is correct for all of us.
Rep. Torr doesn’t seem to think it even fit for us to talk about dumping DST. If it comes to pass that the Uniform Time Act is amended to satisfy Rep. Torr’s wishes we could term the amendment “The Torr Gag Rule”.
This is interesting because I assumed that the agreement in 1960’s was specific. So Indiana Legislature could revote yearlong EST for ET observing areas,and it would become law, and Federal Government would not have to be consulted,only advised of the decision?
The relevant section of United States law provides:
15 USC Sec. 260a. Advancement of time or changeover dates
“Duration of period; State exemption
During the period commencing at 2 o’clock antemeridian on the [ second Sunday of March] of each year and ending at 2 o’clock antemeridian on the [first Sunday of November] of each year, the standard time of each zone established by sections 261 to 264 of this title, as modified by section 265 of this title, shall be advanced one hour and such time as so advanced shall for the purposes of such sections 261 to 264, as so modified, be the standard time of such zone during such period; however, (1) any State that lies entirely within one time zone may by law exempt itself from the provisions of this subsection providing for the advancement of time, but only if that law provides that the entire State (including all political subdivisions thereof) shall observe the standard time otherwise applicable during that period, and (2) any State with parts thereof in more than one time zone may by law exempt either the entire State as provided in (1) or may exempt the entire area of the State lying within any time zone.”
Part (2) is the Indiana exception. The Indiana law which exempted the State from DST was passed before the exception was provided and exempted the entire state, but included a provision deleting the parts of the State in the Central Time Zone should the federal law be changed to allow a State to do so. A legislator in Florida attempted to exempt the Eastern Time zone portion of Florida from DST a couple of years ago based on the “Indiana Exception”. So yes, we legally can reexempt ourselves. I suspect that Torr “fears” is that should more of the state move to Central Time, than the Central Time Zone legislators will use the DST exemption provision as a shoehorn for moving the rest of the state to Central. Voting patterns over the years showed solid support from CTZ legislators for keeping the ETZ part of Indiana on year round standard time.
As an aside, the UTA doesn’t refer to “Daylight Saving Time” but to the “advancement of time”.
I disagree with Rep. Torr’s move in at the federal level because, if future Hoosiers or their General Assemblies want to change the time arrangement, so be it. However, I don’t like it any more when CTZ advocates drumbeat “One State, One Time” and referenda which will take decision making out of the hands of the various regions of the state with their divergent interests and force-feed Central Time statewide.
As the events of the last year and a half have demonstrated, the expansion of Central Time has run out of steam and has even reversed course in some cases. Rep Torr’s idea may not even be necessary to hold the status quo. But, to lock in his victory and short-circuit the future course of this doesn’t seem like the right move. If EDT proves unpopular enough over the course of time, the option to remove it should remain. However, the EST experiment got 30 years. Perhaps it would be best for ALL sides of the debate NOT to rush to change things yet, but to wait to see whether EDT turns out to provide the advantages promised and whether Hoosiers are willing to accept EDT’s disadvantages in exchange for its benefits. If it turns out to be a dud, repeal it. If it’s palatable, let it stand. We should be able to ascertain this by the end of the Daniel’s adminstration (1st or 2nd) and the next gubernatorial and General Assembly candidates should take clear positions on the issue in light of the new facts and realities.
The county commissioners in Pulaski, Daviess, Knox, Dubois, et. al. can testify that knee-jerk reaction to white-hot expressions of public sentiment on this issue isn’t productive and can result in having to wipe quite a bit of egg from one’s face.
Paul,
Thanks very much for quoting the actual federal statute.
This move by Rep. Torr doesn’t suprise me at all. He is just trying to make sure that the dirty pool that was played to pass daylight savings time (that INDOT job to former Rep. Woodruff’s wife, that money for the Gary Airport appropriated to the Senator after she voted no in committee, but then voted yes on the floor after she got her appropriation, former Rep. Heim voting yes in committee against the wishes of his constituents, but at the urging of then Speaker of the House Bosma (I was there and seen it all)) I witnessed and can tell you alot more stories. Also about Governor Daniels’ assistant walking up to one of my collegues from Starke County, and told him his county would be taken care of. The writing was on the wall for the DOT on that decision, and how many other counties were manipulated by Govenor Daniels. Another classic case is Pulaski County, that in the initial ruling was not granted Central time, didn’t submit any further information, didn’t even show up for the DOT hearings, and was suddenly granted Central time. St. Joseph was initially granted Central time, but with interference from Elkhart County (Governor Daniels home away from home in north central Indiana) and the Governor, it was put in the Eastern Time zone. Marshall County in the final DOT ruling basically stated that it saw no evidence why Marshall County should not be in the Central time zone, except that its’ basic trading partner(St. Joseph County) was placed in the Eastern time zone, so Marshall County was left there as well. This whole mess was as a result of Governor Daniels breaking the law, and not respecting the wishes of the county executives. So If Rep. Torr takes the stance to respect daylight saving time, then why didn’t Governor Daniels respect the wishes of the people ? What’s good for the goose, is good for the gander.
The DOT did a very poor job in my opinion with the time zone assignments, which were suppose to be based on convenience of commerce. I even gave a presentation to Judy Colita (DOT representative) explaining why the three counties in our area (i.e. St. Joesph, Marshall & Starke) should not be separated. It turns out that these three counties are in the same basic trading(commerce) area, and totally separate from Elkhart county. And to further back it up, I can give you 40,000 reasons why that decision was wrong. I have 40,000 customers a year who come from Starke County to appointments ( or showtimes) at my indoor theatre. And day after day, week after week, someone shows up late for a movie, even though I repeatedly remind them that all showtime are Eastern standard times (or daylight). Almost a year later, they still keep coming late, and decide to leave. So what has the whole mess of Jerry Torr’s Eastern (daylight)savings time done for my business? You can imagine a significant drop in business. And my drive-in theatre didn’t fare any better this summer, with a 30% loss in revenue.
This whole situation is not over by a long shot. Once Governor Daniels is out of office (only one more year to go), things are going to get cleaned up, and Senator Long better get off his high horse to, because Indiana is not Ohio, and just because Ohio observes Eastern daylight savings time, doesn’t mean that Indiana should to. If Fort Wayne wishes to succeed from Indiana and become part of Ohio, maybe they can pass a law to accomodate them. Just remember that the entire state of Indiana geographically lies in the Central time zone (there is no other state with that distinction). And Senator Pro Tem David Long can be pushed off the chair just like Robert Garton was.
Remember what goes around, comes around.
David Kinney,
You hit the nail squarely on the head.Threats and coersion ruled the day in SW Indiana as influential forces in Dubois county flipped Dubois county commisioner John Burger to change his vote from Central to Eastern thereby starting the move that lead to 5 of the 6 SW counties repetitioning for Eastern time, a petition that will be granted by next Fall according to state Reps Crooks,Battles and Senator Hume.It appears no amount of evidence or rebuttal petitions prepared by Central time supporters that were even referenced in the November 14th correspondence from Senior Counsel Kaleta asking Ice Miller to fix and explain some things in their pathetic Joint Petition for the counties will make any diference what so ever.
In the end the counties will be switched to Eastern time but it will have NOT ONE THING TO DO WITH CONVENIENCE OF COMMERCE!!!If anything Central time supporters have proven that the counties are tied to the Evansville region of counties which was also a opinion shared by the DOT last January in their final report than they are to the surrounding counties which are currently on Eastern time a thought expressed clearly by the DOT in their final ruling, but hey that was last year!I’m sure they will come up with some explanation to switch the counties to Eastern but if they do in my opinion this will make the DOT look like nothing more than a lap dog of Governor Daniels and they may as well do away with the Uniform Time Act and let governors set the time zones!
Not one business in SW Indiana has shown a disadvantage while operating on Central time,a time zone they operated in almost 7 months a year for over thirty years anyway.To the contrary Central time supporters have posted verifiable evidence that in fact most businesses are prospering and some are even expanding.The main argument I hear from Eastern time supporters is that it gets dark too early especially in November and December.Wait until these people get a shot of what amounts to double DST then the complaints will start all over again when it’s not getting dark until 10:00pm!Dubois county was the key to the area and although my county Martin had voted to go back to Eastern time they would not move without Dubois county and neither would the rest of the counties.
You can click on the Indy Star link that Doug has provided to read the letter. It has drawn over 60 responses so far which I found to be very interesting.
This is a link to Torr’s bio
http://www.in.gov/legislative/homepages/R39/meet.html
I was expecting to find that he was a member of the Chamber of Commerce but was surprised that he belongs to three chapters.
The Indiana Chamber of Commerce is responsible for the time arrangement in Indiana so if you are happy with it you should thank them. But if you are not you just have to grin and bear it because it is a private lobbying organization that is not answerable to the people.
The morning sun thieves are the same the world over. Once they win it is the end of the discussion. It took several referendums in Michigan before EDT won. There hasn’t been one since. In Australia one state has had three referendum in the past 30 years and because DST lost all 3 they are expecting another one soon.
Jim B.,
I think I read somewhere the Chamber of Commerce had five paid lobbyists at the state house.Like I said the thing that will upset me the most is (if moved to Eastern)some of the local Chamber of Commerce people and a few local commissioners going in front of the camera’s or newspapers and stating commerce will be best served by the move.That’s a lot of CRAP!Central time supporters have proven no businesses are being disadvantaged and in fact are prospering and we have provided the evidence to the DOT to back it up.To the contrary Eastern time supporters have shown no business disadvantages or harm and their only real argument is personal inconveniences and that it gets dark too early.
I would say inconvenience vs convenience of commerce is the major issue. That’s one of the criteria for time zone assignment. Giving statistics proving that business isn’t suffering is not what DOT will look at.(imo) Business can be inconvenienced but still prosper,but the point is it would take more human effort.Where the time line is drawn is the tangible inconvenience,not the TZ itself.
Lou,
According to their(DOT) own ruling the counties are in the Eavansville commerce,worforce developement and education regions and share the same (BEA).The reason some have constantly pointed out businesses are prospering and not being harmed(inconvenienced) and linking evidence is because the other side says businesses are being harmed and can not possibly prosper in the Central time zone.So some people took it upon themselves to show this is not the case.
In Daviess county just a few miles from where I live is the large corporation GPC(grain processing corporation) who’s headquarters is in Iowa which is located in the Central time zone so if the counties switch back to Eastern will this company not be burdened?I’ll answer my own question No.The reason being as the company spokesman said a few months ago they’ll simply adjust.Time zones make no difference to these companies and businesses.
If you choose to believe that time zone assignment has something to do with convenience of commerce then that’s fine.Time zone assignment has to do with politics,the chamber of commerce and their lobbyists and their DST Eastern time agenda and that’s it.Inconveniences go both ways for people and businesses as far as time zones go.
DOT statement:
DOT has carefully reviewed this data and utilized it in reaching it’s decision.DOT recognizes the importance of regional connections and benefits of similar time zones and regional ties among counties.Remaining in the same time zone and maintaining their regional ties better position counties to realize advantages in ECONOMIC,CULTURAL,SOCIAL AND CIVIC ACTIVITIES THEREBY SEVING THE CONVENIENCE OF COMMERCE.
DOT is relocating for the convenience of commerce,the time zone boundary to move Knox,Pike,Daviess,Dubois,Martin,and Perry counties to the Central time zone.As described above in the summary of the docket,these six counties have strong regional ties to each other and Central time zone counties.While Daviess,Dubois,Knox,Martin and Perry border counties in the Eastern time zone,their ties to those counties is not as strong as they are to each other and OTHER CENTRAL TIME ZONE COUNTIES TO THEIR SOUTH,WHICH ARE CURRENTLY IN THE CENTRAL TIME ZONE.Along with Pike,these counties are located in the same workfore,commerce,transportation,and education regions designated by Indiana.
These statements of one year ago are correct and since not one thing has changed in the region I assume the above mentioned facts are still correct to this day.
Now if this agency wants to come in a year later and make up new statements and be the lap dog of Governor Daniels and lose what little credibility they have left that’s their business just don’t tell me their relocating a time zone boundary they just changed for six counties a year ago for convenience of commerce sake.In other words don’t pee down my back and tell me it’s raining!!!
Phillip,
I’ll give you back two of your own examples just to point why DOT has such a very difficult decision to make . 1. Rep Crooks,in order to re-ignite statewide CT hopes, was going to introduce a bill in the House that asked Hoosiers to give a TZ preference, but when he sent out 2,000 ballots to his own constituents they came back 2/3 in favor of ET. 2.Your sister and brother-in-law hate ET but want their area to go back to all ET because the time zone split makes their workday very inconvenient.
It would be advisable that DOT make no decision til September or so.Let people think about it and see if passions remain high.
Lou,
On the other hand as soon as my sisiter and brother in law get their wish for Eastern time many others will be inconvenienced so who’s right?As for Crooks survey I’ve talked and emailed quite a few people in our district which is Crooks district and no one seemed to have received this survey.I’m not saying it wasn’t sent.Like I stated earlier though, and State Senator Hume also stated, when these people get a shot of Eastern DST or double daylight time you’ll more than likely end up with a lot of complaints about that.
Notice that Rep. Torr refers to DST rather than Eastern DST. Doesn’t he know DST has little practical meaning unless it is linked to a time zone? What is Torr afraid of? Does he fear that EDT has not lived up to its hype? Did we really save any energy last year? Did our crime rate go down? Did we really have more leisure time than the year before? Did we receive more sunlight than the previous year? Is the time in Indiana any less confusing than it ever was? Has anyone done a cost-benefit study to determine if the 2.4 million hours Hoosiers spent last year changing their clocks were worthwhile?
Or perhaps he is afraid that that we Hoosiers will realize that we have some of the latest sunrises in the original 48 states. In fact, Indianapolis has the latest sunrises of any city its size in the nation. Our clocks are out of phase with the sun and out-of-step with the rest of the country’s clocks.
Why does he want to tie our hands? What if we find that sending our kids to school in the dark for the entire school year is detrimental to their education? What if we prefer Monday Night Football to start at 7:30 pm and end at 11 pm rather than start at 8:30 and finish after midnight? What if we decide that driving to work on dark winter mornings is more hazardous than driving home on dark winter evenings because it is normally 15 degrees colder in the morning and the road crews have not had time to clear the streets before sunrise? What if we realize that by aligning ourselves with the eastern ¼ of the country that we are farther away from the remaining ¾? What if we discover there is more to all this than as former Speaker Bosma so disparagingly said “It is a test to see if Hoosiers are smart enough to change their clocks�
The Indiana Chamber of Commerce is responsible for our clock arrangement and if you are happy with it you should thank them but if you are unhappy you have to grin and bear it because they are a private lobbying organization that is not answerable to the people. Rep. Torr’s bio says he belongs to 3 different local chapters of the Chamber.
I’ll keep singing my song: Death to DST. I don’t care about Eastern or Central.
I wish we could get Rep. Torr’s feedback on this thread.
The seriousness of this issue for teen health is underestimated, or ignored, by Torr and his golf buddies. No child, particularly teens, should be starting school in the dark if at all avoidable.
Check out:
http://www.sleepfoundation.org/site/c.huIXKjM0IxF/b.2419115/k.777/A_Look_at_the_School_Start_Times_Debate.htm
Where did you get he’s smart. He’s does nothing and nonresponsive to his constituents. The scary part, he doesn’t stand alone. On one particular issue where I wanted to grow Indiana jobs (biomass jobs), not only Torr didn’t respond, but at least 5 others including the Governor……If it there idea there all over it…They only support what keeps their positions.