The USDOT has issued a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for Southwestern Indiana today. It is USDOT docket OST-2007-28746. (The PDF of the document is here.)
The notice proposes to relocate the time zone boundary in Indiana to move Knox, Daviess, Martin, Pike, and Dubois Counties from the Central Time Zone into the Eastern Time Zone. Comments are open for the next 30 days — July 16, 2007 to August 15, 2007 or thereabouts.
DOT requests comment on whether this change would serve the convenience of commerce, the statutory standard for a time zone change and whether the time zone boundary should be changed for other contiguous counties in southwestern Indiana. Persons supporting or opposing the change should not assume that the change will be made merely because DOT is making the proposal. The final rule will be based on all of the information received during the entire rulemaking proceeding and whether the statutory standard has been met.
Those who wish to comment should go to the main docket page at:
http://dms.dot.gov/search/document.cfm?documentid=476552&docketid=28746. Next, go to the bottom of the page where there is a link for “Comment/Submissions”. Unless you wish to register, simply click “continue”. For docket ID type “OST-2007-28746”. The rest of the “document information” is optional, but the “Operating Administration” is “OST”. The docket type is “regulatory.” The docket existence is “does exist”. The docket title is “Standard Time Zone Boundary in Southwest Indiana”. And, the remainder is your information. Next, click “continue” and it will take you to a page for submitting your comment.
I haven’t read more than a couple of pages of the NPRM, but I did note the USDOT’s explanation of the Southwestern Counties’ explanation of their dramatic switch in positions:
The Joint Petition requests a change that is contrary to the Petitioning Counties’ positions in their original individual petitions. The Joint Petition claims the original petitions “were incomplete and conclusory, and the information they contained was limited and largely based on opinion and not backed by substantial and verifiable evidence.†The Joint Petition states that, since the January 2006 ruling, there has been “a groundswell of support for returning to the Eastern Time Zone, which has been a product of residents and businesses having been inconvenienced in ways that they could not have fully anticipated until the switch occurred.†Accordingly, the Joint Petition claims “to contain more extensive and thorough research on this issue.â€
The NPRM notes 300 or so comments submitted to the (old) docket on the subject of the Southwestern Counties but that they were not considered in making a determination on whether the notice of proposed rule making would issue — rather the USDOT apparently will consider them and any other comments submitted in the next 30 days in determining whether to go ahead and adopt the proposed rule.
I’ll leave it to you guys to dissect the NPRM here or, probably even better, on the USDOT docket.
Senior Counsel Kaleta spoke to Mr.Rocky Byrd today by phone as well as another person from Loogootee a Post Master who supports Central time and stated this was by no means a done deal and all research submitted by Central time supporters will be considered but I am more pessimistic but will continue to fight the good fight to the bitter end!!
Oh yeah!
The Joint Petition the third revised one that is is a piece of garbage and has been successfully rebutted twice and for a third time by Mr.Byrd.The commuter numbers do not favor Eastern time which should be one of the most important factors in all of this.Only a handful of businesses mainly from Dubois county are complaining and have offered no proof of hardship being on Central time.
It’s funny when a few businesses complain and a few hundered people show up at a commissioners meeting wanting Eastern time it’s called a “GROUNSWELL OF SUPPORT” but when the same thing happens and people and businesses a petitions that favor Central time as in the Perry county case are presented they are called insignificant!
Phillip-
If, as you report, Ms. Kaleta has told Mr. Byrd that it is by no means a “done deal”, you and other CT supporters should take it very seriously. What in effect has been said is that the petitioning counties have established a “prima facie” case on the basis of their representations (and I emphasize the word “representations”) to the Office, nothing more. That being done the DOT may feel obligated to issue the NPRM, which as we all know may not stick. NPRMs approving or disallowing a petition for a change of time zone for Indiana counties have been reversed in the final rule three times in the last 25 years. From Doug’s comment it appears that Mr. Joyce’s and Mr. Byrd’s efforts at rebuttal have not yet been “formally” considered, even though they obviously influenced the tone of the NPRM.
Paul,
You are correct in that the DOT states the rebuttals have not been considered as a whole as part of the forthcoming decision yet but the DOT did use some of the information contained in these and a few other submissions by Central time supporters to question the validity of Ice Millers claims and have them correct mistakes that they made that we pointed out and also have them elaborate on some of their assertions.
And Perry County, the most Eastern of those counties petitioning, is left off the list. Makes about as much sense as anything in this whole mess has to this point.
T,
Perry county is a seperate situation and they were told they could not joint this Joint Petition and will be considered seperately which if this Joint Petition of the five counties is eventually denied the Perry county case will not matter as they are only requesting a change if the five counties Joint Petition is granted.
A couple comments that stuck out from DOT. On balance,the 5 counties have more in common with each other and with the state at large than they do with the counties to their south. Evansville area is peripheral influence: This is the basic preliminary conclusion of all the fact gathering(imo). USDOT went through category by category of the questions they asked to be addressed and most came out on ET balance,but several other categories were indeterminate.It wasn’t clear if that meant for ET or for CT.They requested more information.So it seems there is a possibility to change the balance of documentation to support a CT decision. For CT to win out,those categories that DOT stated satisfied them for ET would have to be disproven by added documentation for CT. I didn’t make note of which categories are undetermined.It would probably be difficult to gather more information to complete the undetermined categories because DOT is emphasizing they expect specific sources and documentation,which is simply not available for either side,or the question is irrelevant to a particular county.DOT made it clear that the entire 5-county area was being looked at as a whole.But as was pointed out above, DOT has yet much to examine from pro-CT postings already on the docket.
It looks as if Perry County is on their on to prove they belong on ET,even if the other 5 counties are granted their re-petition to ET.
In my comment to Phillip above I threw out the term ‘prima facie’ case. In the context of administrative rulemaking a ‘prima facie’ case means a great deal less than it does in a court of law. An administrative agency such as the DOT only requires a rational basis to make a rule, in this case to move the time line. This is a very low hurdle for administrative agencies to meet. Once a rule is made it can be overturned by the courts for an abuse of discretion. However, the conclusion that there is a rational basis for making the rule only means that it is within the discretion of the agency, here the DOT, to actually make the rule final. The DOT is not required to move the time line. It is perfectly possible, in fact it is overwhelmingly probable, that a rational basis exists for the petitioning counties to be on either Central or Eastern Time. To say that there is a prima facie case for Eastern Time does not mean that the case for it is stronger than the case for Central Time.
The NPRM advances the rational basis for Eastern Time, it is not a conclusion that it is a stronger case than that for Central. Lou is incorrect in concluding that the “fact gathering” now on balance favors Eastern Time on the basis of the DOT having issued an NPRM.
Paul,
But isn’t the important point that the case for ET wasn’t thrown out? These are now CT- observing counties,and they will now have to defend that to remain on CT. It seems like a huge step forward for ET.’Favoring ET’ was a bad choice of words on my part so I stand corrected.But that’s why I hire a lawyer and don’t present things myself in legal matters.
Lou,
The petitioning counties could avoid moving to ET simply by dropping the petition during the comment period. They wouldn’t have to “defend” remaining on CT at all.
As for the NPRM being “important” or a “huge step forward”, I think you recognize that in context such statements are just spin.
Funny that in January of 2006 the DOT stated our counties had more in common with each other and the Central time counties to the south than they do with any Eastern time counties they border.I am obviously biased but I still believe the evidence favors the counties remaining in the Central time zone and Ice Miller has not proven their case.
They submit false information which has been proven untrue and had to be corrected numerous times and intentionally mislead.Take for instance as a example when asked by DOT to provide a Fall sport and show a inconvenience in scheduling by being on Central time Ice Miller picked boy’s basketball and provided five schools schedules that would best make their case.Mr.Byrd did every high school in the five counties which is far more than five,I do not have the number in front of me and broke them down and submitted them.When taken as a whole the least inconvenience in scheduling occurs by remaining in the Central time zone.Ice Miller does this type of thing in many cases leaving incomplete holes in the evidence and not providing all the facts because they do not help their case.We come in behind them and provide those verifiable facts.All this said I remain pessimistic about remaining in the Central time zone.
I believe the politics,money,and power are behind Eastern time but that’s just my nature.The same can be said of the failed immigration bill and it was stopped but I honestly feel most people do not care which time zone we are in.Look out of hundreds of thousands of residents and thousands of businesses in these five counties you basically have two petitions for Eastern time with around 2500 names and only a few businesses, although I am sure the Chamber is starting to gear up to go business to business with a generic form to be sent for Eastern time like they did state wide back in 2005.This is no “GROUNDSWELL” for Eastern time.When they had the new time meetings back in 2006 you basically had a few hundred people or less attend each one.These were people being inconvenienced by the switch.If the area switched back to Eastern I am sure you could get the same effect by people being inconvenienced by that switch.
phillip– Thanks for the clarification. I knew Perry had submitted separately but I guess I thought they would be considered at the same time. I guess I can thank the Perry County commissioners’ fence-sitting for the confusion. I find it hard to believe that the other counties would go back to Eastern, and Perry would be left as a little salient of Central jutting eastward. But stranger things have happened.
Doug–seems like a good occasion to repost your time zone map.
Lou,
You can correct me if I am wrong but having just read over the 53 pg document by the DOT the comments you reference the DOT making about our counties being on the peripheral of the Evansville region and about having more in common with Eastern time bordering counties and the state as a whole in the Eastern time zone were WHAT THE JOINT PETITION ASSERTS NOT THE DOT the way I read it anyway.
I saw several instances unlike the Pulaski county NPRM where the DOT disagrees with the Joint Petition which gives me a slim hope this will be denied.You can bet research will be forthcoming to bolster are case.It gets dark too early will not be a consideration in this matter.The DOT also agrees that Ice Millers commuter numbers do not support a change which is the most important aspect in my opinion.
I really take exception with them on the recreation in regard to scholl sports schedules justifying a change they clearly do not but maybe they have not went over the detaile schedules of all area high schools which Mr.Byrd submitted.
Phil– I have been to Daviess County twice this summer. The first time I used SR 57 and the second trip I went by US 231. I didn’t see a time zone sign at the Greene/Daviess county line on either road. Has the state put new TZ signs anywhere? Maybe Mitch thinks its only temporary.
Jim B.,
If you have time throw us a comment our way for the region to remain on Centrasl time lord knows everyone from the northern counties will be commenting.There will be a story tomorrow in the Washington Hearld I wrote them yesterday and told them about the NPRM right after I emailed Doug.
let’s put all of indiana on the same time & move foward to more important issues i.e. I-69
greg,
That we agree on!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Phillip,
Isn’t it the position of the Joint Petition that the only county with significant TZ ‘commuting problems’ is Martin county.Otherwise most people stay in the county where they work.The percentage of those who cross a TZ are not significant compared to the vast majority who dont,except with Martin County. Also, why do many of those those who support CT for Indiana disavow the fact that ET has been the primary time in Indiana since about 1960? There’s one premise that has always bothered me. It has always seemed like mental gymnastics to me to say CDT and EST are the same. They are not the same at all. They are two different time systems.EST in effect is a separate TZ,and can’t be compared to CDT/CST.(Some parts of E. Indiana wanted to stay on CDT and that was, at the time in the early 60s, ruled not feasible,since DST is summer time)
To clarify an earlier question you made, the Joint Petition contends that these counties have a peripheral connection with Evansville and a major one with the rest of the state. But DOT is unconvinced and needs more documentation on that and several other categories.Just Looking at the current map posted above it looks as if Evansville has as large a commuting area in SW indiana as NW Indiana counties do with Chicago.That appears to make Evansville another Chicago.Also, there would always be lots of commuting,although less frequent, to any state capital from anywhere in the state.I used to go to both Lafayette and Bloomington( from Illinois in my case) just because they were university centers,and also to Indianapolis for various reasons.The point is many in SW Indiana would go to these cities at times just because of their importance,although not daily.
Now that the final decision will soon be forthcomming,I will admit I’ll miss the TZ debate,but I think Im glad also not to have been emotionally involved as so many have been.I loved the examination of the time issue,the history of time in Indiana and bordering states, as it was so thoroughly examined on this blog since 2004.And Phillip, you have clearly given the perspective for CT for SW Indiana in great detail,and you have captured the passion of the issue.
‘forthcoming’ with one M
Lou,
You write “Isn’t it the position of the Joint Petition that the only county with significant TZ ‘commuting problems’ is Martin county.Otherwise most people stay in the county where they work.” 26.3% of Martin County’s workforce leaves the county for work, but 39.2% of Pike County’s workforce leaves that county. About 2/3 of those leaving Martin County go to Dubois and Daviess Counties, so they are not crossing the time line. From Pike large numbers go to Dubois (17.4% of the total), Gibson (8.0% of the total) and Vanderburgh (4.6% of the total). None of these currently cross the time line, but if the NPRM is adopted a substantial number will (those commuting to Gibson and Vanderburgh). Pike and Martin are the smallest counties among the petitioning counties in population, though Pike is the somewhat larger.
Of course we can show almost anything if we dice up the petitioning area just right, which is what Ice Miller did in the petition and what you are doing now. I find it difficult to believe that the Dubois County Commissioners give a fig about Martin County’s “commuting problem” (or anybody elses commuting problem for that matter) when the proposed time line would result in more of their own residents crossing the time line than do now. The area petitioned as a group and the commuting figures for the aggregate region narrowly favor keeping the region as a whole in the Central Time Zone.
Martin County is dominated by one employer, Crane, its labor force is highly organized and a large proportion of the labor force comes from Lawrence and Monroe Counties and that group is complaining about having to cross the time line.
But consider, commuting patterns are one factor used by geographers to show interrelationships between regions and I would guess it is one reason why the factor can be given a strong emphasis by the DOT. Strong commuting into a particular county has traditionally been used as part of the definition of a metropolitan area bcause it is usually an indicator of where the economic, cultural and trade center for a region lies. But is there really that sort of relationship vis-a-vis Martin County and the counties to its east and north? Crane is a military facility. These people travel into Crane and leave directly for home. Martin County has virtually none of the other attributes of a trade or commercial center.
Paul,
Here is what the Joint Petition states about commuting ,taken from pages 29-30:
‘Commuting patterns demonstrate the strong connections among petitioning counties and recognize that the commuters do not have a large impact on the overall workforce in most petitioning counties with the exception of Martin County where commuters make up 46.9% of Martin county workforce’
So it remains to be seen if this can be proven as DOT seeks more input.It’ll be interesting to see how the commuter issue is decided.Naturally both sides frame the issue so that their data makes them right.
I think DOT is trying to categorize and simplify the data so that they can simply point to the specific data they used to make a decision.Everything they ask for is specific and verifiable
Lou,
That the petition simply ignored Pike County, and the fact that it has the largerst proportion of any of the petitioning counties who leave the county for work, and a substantial portion who travel to Gibson and Vanderburgh, doesn’t surprise me. It is simply another example of Ice Miller’s casual disregard of any factor which supports keeping the area on Central time, for much of what can be said about Martin County (the smallest of the five) could also have said about Pike (the second smallest of the five). But Pike residents who commute to Gibson and Vanderburgh are more likely to have banking, medical and educational connections to Gibson and Vanderburgh, where so many work, than are residents of Lawrence and Monroe Counties, who commute to Martin County, likely to have ties with Martin county.
Reconsidering the Crane situation has convinced me that the commuting data is of somewhat greater importance than the near, but slightly pro-CTZ balance of the raw data might otherwise indicate. Crane is in the NE corner of Martin County and commuters to the base from the NE never have to go further into the county than Crane. Crane seems to be little integrated with Martin County’s economy. I’m not sure Martin County has what could be called a developed economy given so many of its workers travel to Dubois and Daviess Counties for work and the towns in the county are so small. The commuters from the north and east into Crane have virtually no other connection to Martin County other than the accident of Crane’s location. I would contend that the commuting figures are not an indicator of ties between Monroe and Lawrence Counties and the SW five, unlike ties which are usually indicated by commuting patterns. The “problem” these commuters have could be completely dealt with simply by changing Crane’s opertional hours.
However, the existence of a block of commuters between the ETZ and Crane masks the large number of commuters from CTZ counties (Spencer and Perry primarily) into the petitioning five. These commuters, who work for businesses which are part of the true commercial sectors in these counties, are more indicative of economic and cultural ties between regions.
Ice Miller has every reason to run away from a close examination of the numbers here.
Lou,Paul
Martin county has less than 1000 employees who work at Crane,Daviess (Central) has around 800,and Dubois less than that.Around 3000 of the Crane employees comes from the Eastern time zone and makes up the nearly 5000 and some that are presently inconvenienced in the five counties either commuting to Eastern to work or commuting from Eastern to Central to work like the Crane employees.According to the DOT in the NPRM the case has not been made that states less commuters will be inconvenienced by switching back to Eastern time.I had the correspondence from the DOT but mailed it to Dave Crooks where their numbers and Rocky Byrds commuter numbers shows I believe around 5000 more commuters will be burdened by switching back.Cell phone service for the counties is also out of Evansville and Mr.Bryd and Crooks before he switched to pro-Eastern stated we will lose free minutes if the time zone is switched again.
Lou,I do not try to contend that EST is the same as Central time I know you did not mention me specifically,I always say we were in line with the Central time zone almost 7 months out of the year while observing year round EST Central is the time zone we were in line with more of the year than Eastern time zone states observing DST thats all.The Crane workers do not shop or do business in martin county.They go in the Bloomington gate and leave the same way.Martin county has only one small(very) city Loogootee and town Shoals.
Lou,
I apologize to you and everyone else for being so annoying on this issue but I really do believe I am right as does Mr.Byrd and a few others who have spent hours researching facts and putting together submissions with little hope to win in the end because I believe the process is tainted and the DOT will do what Governor Daniels tells them to do.
Look,the DOT can write a final ruling to support either time zone because the area will do fine on either time zone in my opinion. I have just never believed it is right to inconvenience the majority of commuters to appease the minority and I discount business having difficulty communicating across time zones in the twenty first century with all the available technologies of today and they have not shown a hardship in the Ice Miller documentation.I also expect more comments for Eastern time to the docket eventually since if you are presently inconvenienced while commuting you will be more inclined to comment,only after the decision to move to Eastern time will the commuters who will be burdened that way be upset and then it will be too late!
Paul brings up an intersting question: ‘what is the definition of commuters?’Each side ‘dices’ numbers and facts because they want to prove their side. That’s what DOT has to sort out.How we define ‘commuter’ throws the advantage to either ET or CT. I would define ‘commuter’ as it relates to the TZ question, as anyone crossing a TZ for any reason that forms a definable pattern.Of course that’s very difficult to tabulate and verify. Estimations could be made,but then the process would be the target,as it is now already.
Commuting is just one category DOT requires so all categories must be taken as a whole.In the end,after evaluating all the categories where does the TZ balance lie? ( Im just guessing how DOT will evaluate).
The greater point on the tendancy of many CT people to characterize ETZ as something we see only the on the East Coast and Bangor, Maine belies the fact that most of Indiana has observed ET for many years.ET without EDT was still ET.Any map since early 60s tells us most of Indiana has been in ETZ for many years.
Probably irrelevant to the discussion, but it bears mentioning that all of those categories the DOT specifies are self-imposed. The statute essentially gives the Secretary of the Dept. of Transportation unfettered discretion on time zones, mentioning only the geographic location and the convenience of commerce as things about which the Secretary ought to be mindful when adjusting the zones.
Lou,
I agree what defines a commuter is someone who crosses a time zone line that’s why I am going to for one last time give you the DOT numbers available in their April letter to Ice Miller asking them for more information about the Joint Petition.Doug has a link to this letter under DST DOT request additional information on SW counties.
Here is a excerpt from that letter in regard to commuters:
DOT states:
Under the current time zone boundaies,the number of workers migrating to the Petitioning counties for work from counties currently in the Central time zone is 9,787.The number of workers migrating to the Petitioning counties from the Eastern time zone is 4,363.Furthermore,under the current time zone boundaries,and again based on pages 14-17 of the Joint Petition,the number of residents leaving the Petitioning counties for work in counties currently in the Eastern time zone is 627.The number of residents commuting for work from the petitioning counties to counties currently in the Central time zone(original Central time zone) is 3,329.
Those are the numbers from the DOT and in the NPRM they state the commuting patterns do bnot support a time zone change.Clear as mud isn’t it!
These numbers also do not account for commuters from Western KY and Illinois who commute to Indiana to work and will be burdened if the time zone is switched back.
Phillip,
Give just two figures…How many people now have to change TZ when they commute in and out of any of these counties? If the petition were granted what would that number be? There arent any statistics from Il/Ky to and from IN evidently? I would count that for sure if there are statistics available,if there is there is a TZ change.
But as Doug pointed out above, DOT chooses the scope of the questions and evaluates the answers,so both sides have to give them what they want.Both sides would like additonal info counted for their argument,if allowed.It appears that CT is the most retricted as to what they would like to submit compared to what they are requested.
DOT may have make a statement soon whether or not Perry County is part of the process.
Lou,
I see what you are saying but these are the numbers the DOT commented on in their correspondence.I will check but I believe Mr.Byrd may have had some commuter numbers from Illinois and Western KY.
It looks to me like and I may be wrong thatwhat the DOT is saying is 627 people from the five Petitioning counties migrate to the Eastern time zone and are inconvenienced while 3,329 commuters from the Petitioning counties commute to the original Central time zone and would be burdened if switched back to Eastern.I these residents and tax payers from the Petitioning counties(the majority of commuters) should not have to burdened at the expense of the 4,363 (mainly Crnae workers est 3,000) who do not reside in one of the counties.
My take on the 9,787 commuters is that may be workers from the Petitioning counties commuting within the Petitioning counties.Never have been sure it’s not clear unless I just don’t understand which is a possibility.I’ll have to look at Mr.Byrd’s numbers again.Anyway the DOT states Ice Miller hasn’t made the case concerning commuter numbers so that’s that.
If Perry county commuting patterns were threw into this mix it would even more skew these numbers toward Central time.
Lou,
What are your thoughts on this DOT statement made to Ice Miller on November 14th which Ice Miller later said was true.
The DOT asked for a explanation of a Ice Miller claim that “key statistics” from the Indian Chamber of Commerce support a time zone change.
The DOT asked for a explanation when they determined that two-thirds of products from the Petitioning counties are exported to locations other than the Eastern time zone and just less than one half of products come from a point of origin other than the Eastern time zone.
Ice Miller states these facts to be true so it would seem commerce from the five counties is not as skewed to Eastern time as business interests would have everyone believe.The major news paper for a region is also considered by DOT.Evansville Courier circulation in five counties over 12,000 Indianaplois Strar circulation just over 4,000 for the five counties.Ice Miller claims no local businesses advertise in the Courier which is not true and residents have scanned coppies of advertising and submitted them to DOT.
Phillip,
I had just read that entry you refer to about the Evansville newspaper circulation being WAY under-counted in Dubois County.Does Ice -Miller check out their information?It seems sloppy.It doesn’t look good to make so many errors in an offical capacity,does it?We’ll be watching for a correction.
Off subject but… I know that after this Bush Administration I dont trust facts and figures very much anymore no matter who gives them.Our Admistration always proved everything they wanted by giving us ‘the facts’ and statistics out to 3 decimal points..The real truth comes in the relative intrepretation of it all especially including what is left out,deliberately or not is speculation..So I hope that’s where DOT will go..sort through the statistics of both sides and relate them to commerce…That’s not easy or quick. It’s revealing to see facts and figures related to personal or business convenience /inconvenience, then it all means something and paints a trend. So business-related personal experience can be very revealing because it may represent an over-all problem or good outcome.( if the baby sitter arrives late because of dealing with a TZ and you can’t leave for work on time that’s an example of business-related personal problem,and ‘commerce’ may suffer ‘inconvenience’).
Lou,
If you are reffering to Mr.Byrds entry I believe it’s Daviess county he is speaking about but that’s a honest mistake.OST-2007-28746-1095.Mr.Byrd also had a good 10pg entry on recreation with facts and figures.Anyway back to the Courier and it’s reach into the five counties Ice Miller has had trouble with this question from the begining of this process since Ice Miller knows one of the criteria for a time zone is from where does the region get it’s major newspaper.
First Ice Miller stated the Evansville Courier was not even delivered in Martin county which was untrue and they later retracted that now they seem to be going to the argument that The Courier only covers national news and Evansville news and no local businesses from the five counties advertise in this paper.Scanned copies of Evansville Courier articles and advertisements by local businesses from the five counties have been submitted to the DOT by several people to show other wise.
Lou,
If you recall this law firm has committed countless errors they later had to retract.They do indeed do SLOPPY WORK!Hey but at least their getting paid for it.Mr.Byrd has to do all his work after he gets home from work but he is not complaining he believes in this cause.I also am guilty of this but with all the problems in the world today we probaly seem nuts to many people.
Lou,
If you ever have time go to the Perry County News search archives by typing in TIME ZONE.There is a excellent article about the NPRM issued by the DOT,the best I’ve read.They have comments from Bill Mosley and a DOT attorney calling the Joint Petition “WEAK”.
19, lou says (July 21st, 2007 at 16:51 -0400), “Also, why do many of those who support CT for Indiana disavow the fact that ET has been the primary time in Indiana since about 1960?… It has always seemed like mental gymnastics to me to say CDT and EST are the same. They are not the same at all. They are two different time systems. EST in effect is a separate TZ, and can’t be compared to CDT/CST.”
Hi, Lou. As a follow-up to Phillip’s reply, I certainly can’t speak for every CT supporter, but I think I can explain how I view the year-round eastern time most of Indiana was on from 1967 to 2005 or so.
First of all, I continue to refer to EST and CDT as synonymous. Here is why.
I often find it convenient to translate a time zone / DST designation into its corresponding offset from Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) which is usually represented as something like UTC -0400, meaning four hours earlier than Coordinated Universal Time (effectively the more modern atomic clock equivalent of GMT).
In terms of UTC offset, CST is UTC -0600. I.e., when the clock reads noon at Greenwich Observatory during the non-DST period, the clocks on CST read 6:00 pm. CDT and EST are both UTC -0500. Therefore, the sunrise, midday transit, and sunset occur at the same clock time for any given location in Indiana whether we say that location is observing CDT or EST.
Just for completeness, EDT is UTC -0400.
The other sense in which I consider that we were effectively on central time during some percentage of those 40 years, is that our clocks matched those in St. Louis (central meridian of the central zone) during the DST months (whether 6 or 7, or now 8) and they matched those in Philadelphia (center of the eastern zone) the remaining months of the year. I believe that is the point Phillip also makes in his follow-up above.
The question I’d like to see asked more often is how would the majority of Hoosiers reply if asked something like this, “What time zone would you prefer if you knew Indianapolis and your surrounding counties would also be in that same zone?”
Assuming that we continue to observe DST with the states around us, which is what I prefer, there are two options.
Option A: Shift about 1 hour 45 minutes of sunlight from morning to evening during the 8 months of DST and about 45 minutes from morning to evening during the other 4 months. This is eastern time, with an average of about 85 minutes per day of sunlight shifted from morning to evening in Indiana.
Option B: Shift about 45 minutes of sunlight from morning to evening during DST and about 15 minutes from evening to morning during non-DST. This is central time, with an average of 25 minutes per day of sunlight shifted from morning to evening.
For comparison, the typical or average pattern at the middle of a time zone would be about 60 minutes shifted from morning to evening during DST and no sunlight shifted during the non-DST months. This averages out to about 40 minutes per day shifted from morning to evening over the course of a year. This is a baseline against which to compare Options A and B.
I prefer Option B for the entire state, partly because it more equitably balances our available sunlight between those who prefer enjoying it in the evening and those who prefer enjoying it in the morning.
The 45 minute figures above are for the middle of Indiana. To convert over to the equivalent figures for the five petitioning counties, just use 47 to 50 minutes instead of 45.
Bill Starr
Columbus, Indiana
Tue, 24 Jul 2007, 5:50 pm EDT
Typo above. Clocks read 6 am on central standard time when it is noon GMT, not 6 pm.