I didn’t watch the ABC Debate. I hear the moderators were awful. The following topics apparently did not figure prominently:
The financial crisis
The collapse of housing values in the US and around the world
Afghanistan
Health care
Torture
The declining value of the US Dollar
Education
Trade
Pakistan
Energy
Immigration
The decline of American manufacturing
The Supreme Court
The burgeoning world food crisis.
Global warming
China
The attacks on organized labor and the working class
Terrorism and al Qaeda
Civil liberties and constraints on government surveillance
Flag pins, on the other hand, were deemed significant. Our media is just truly, truly horrible.
Update
Tom Shales: In PA Debate, The Clear Loser is ABC.
When Barack Obama met Hillary Clinton for another televised Democratic candidates’ debate last night, it was more than a step forward in the 2008 presidential election. It was another step downward for network news — in particular ABC News, which hosted the debate from Philadelphia and whose usually dependable anchors, Charlie Gibson and George Stephanopoulos, turned in shoddy, despicable performances.
For the first 52 minutes of the two-hour, commercial-crammed show, Gibson and Stephanopoulos dwelled entirely on specious and gossipy trivia that already has been hashed and rehashed, in the hope of getting the candidates to claw at one another over disputes that are no longer news. Some were barely news to begin with.
The fact is, cable networks CNN and MSNBC both did better jobs with earlier candidate debates. Also, neither of those cable networks, if memory serves, rushed to a commercial break just five minutes into the proceedings, after giving each candidate a tiny, token moment to make an opening statement. Cable news is indeed taking over from network news, and merely by being competent.
Update #2 Hunter and Doghouse are on this:
Hunter:
It seems impossible, but we may yet have an election season in which we can be in a slogging, five-year-long war, and mention the fact only in glancing asides. We may yet have a series of Republican-Democratic debates in which the most pressing issues of the economy are entirely ignored, so that we can more adequately explore the “patriotism” of the candidates as expressed by their clothing. We may have yet another campaign season carefully orchestrated to leave all but the most glancing and hollow of themes untouched, while our press achieves multiple orgasms at every botched line, every refused cup of coffee, every peddled character assassination or character assassination-by-proxy peddled by the sleaziest of paid dregs. A campaign, in other words, perfectly suited to the bereft, rudderless, and substanceless self-pronounced guardians of our democracy.
Doghouse Riley:
OKAY, now let’s say you are The American Broadcasting Company, Inc. You’re owned, fittingly, by the Walt Disney Company, the second largest media corporation in the world, with $35.51 B in revenue last year. And the best you can do is Charlie Gibson and George Stephanopoulos? The Wal-Mart version of Charles Kuralt, and a guy whose career can only be explained by America’s continued love affair with Talking Chipmunks? They didn’t just grill the next Democratic party nominee for President on Bosniagate, Wrightgate, Bittergate, and flag pins, aka All The Important Issues; Gibson nearly went postal over Effective Capital Gains Tax Rates, a matter it has to be difficult to get his accountant interested in this year.
. . .
Incidentally, this sort of thing is the product of Charlie Gibson being groomed for a week so he can mouth this sort of thing. It’s not his response to some errant comment or candidate’s evasiveness; this is what a roomful of people came up with for Charlie Gibson to bring up.
I watched the debate, it was hilarious. I’ve never been a fan of Gibson or Snuffeluppigas but since both candidates have virtually identical policy positions, there wasn’t much else to focus on besides The Messiah’s lack of comprehension and Hill’s pathological lying.
McCain won last night’s debate.
I did watch the entire 2-hour debate.
In the Fall campaign the questions asked last night paralleled the recent political chat and will be what Republicans’ emphasize in the Fall campaign. Obama ( the presumed nominee) will have had practice answering these ‘character’ questions.
My republican family’s number one question had been why Obama didnt wear a flag lapel pin,and that was remarkably asked,so questions were indeed on target.Obama’s answer was good,although for most of us it seemed a trivial pursuit.
I said months ago that this fall campaign is going to come down to Obama’s lack of a flag pin or his failure to recite the pledge of allegience, or whatever.
This is the “flag burning” of this campaign.
Is Obama a “card carrying member of the ACLU”?
This superficiality is not a relfection on the politicians, or the media. It is a reflection of us, the voters. This is what voters care about. This is what the median voter has the education to comprehend. This is what the median voter has the intelligence to comprehend.
The other issues you mentioned are just not what the median voter can understand, and thus will never be topics of discussion in a debate.
And let’s be honest, the debate forum does not allow for anything other than trite answers to trite questions.
It was embarassing. 45 minutes in and we hadn’t reached one substantive issue. But we had covered a number of gaffes – pastor wright, bosnia, bitterness, flag pin and ayers.
The least the moderators could have done was mix it up a little so those watching could learn something at least every other question.
Careful. Mustn’t be elitist!
The territory of the United States includes a number of remote islands.
My burning policy question: should we send the media AND our political class to the same island? Or would separate islands be better?
Made me think of a Pink Floyd song from the Final Cut:
(My favorite line bolded).
Who loves their country less? Someone who chooses not to use our country’s flag as a fashion accessory, or the dipshits willing to PICK OUR PRESIDENT based on their choice of fashion accessories?
Def Leppard’s lead singer wore his country’s flag as a pair of shorts, all the time. If only we had a candidate here with that degree of love of country.
Hillary is hitting hard on the Ayers connection:
“I appreciate your passionately held feelings”. Ha! A Hillary hack with a sense of humor! Who would have thunk it.
It was obvious that George and Charlie didn’t read Tim Robbins speech to the National Broadcasters Assoc. the other day….
Tim Robbins Speech
Good speech and still worth reading, but looks like it was from 5 years ago.
Oops. Sorry, wrong speech.
recent speech
Get off the “fairness doctrine” already, Tim Robbins.
Word to the wise, libs. The fairness doctrine does not apply to satellite radio. Hannity, Miller, Schlessinger, Ingrahm, etc. etc. are already on XM. Rush could easily be on there if he wanted to.
You might just kill AM radio for good, but you can’t silence talk radio.
If anyone believes that the most important issues in this election are: 1) a comment from a cocktail party, 2) comments by a candidate’s pastor, 3)association with a lefty radical on a charity board or 4) a $2 piece of patriotic metal made by a Chinese sweatshop — then he/ she deserves the CRAPPY government they vote for.
I do hope the first 45 minutes of the first general election debate focuses solely on the Keating Five and the fact that he’s associated with a multi-millionaire wife who stole drugs from a medical relief agency to support her addiction. Not because I think that matters much. Just because it’s not fair that only one side gets kneecapped by this bullshit. Maybe then bipartisan anger (which includes Republican anger–the most effective kind) would lead these asses to conduct their inquisitions in a more substantive way.
X-WIRE X-CLUSIVE!! CHELSEA CLINTON FORT WAYNE VISIT “LOGISTICAL NIGHTMARE”
http://x-wire.blogspot.com/2008/04/x-wirechelsea-clinton-ipfw-visit.html
GET THERE FIRST, WITH THE MOST NEWS- X-MARKS THE SPOT!
which includes Republican anger–the most effective kind)
Pot. Kettle. Black.
I hope they talk about Keating and the drugs too. Unlike Obama, the McCains have learned from their mistakes (see here for Cindy, McCain-Feingold and earmark reform in John’s case.)
I have to admit, I never knew much more about McCain than what I heard on talk radio, which is almost completely negative and had been for the last 9 years or more. The more I read about his and his wife’s background, the more I like him. His wife is just stunning, and not just in the looks department. She’s got class.
One thing that always has amazed me about AM-RW radio is that it shifts so easily from ‘anti-government’, when Clinton was president, to ‘pro-government’, when GW is president.
Nothing amazing about that. It’s just “our team” versus “their team” without any principals.
Maybe Obama’s *learning* from his “mistakes”. He’s not as old as McCain, whose mistakes were when he was about Obama’s age, after all.
Of course, if McCain does have to answer any such questions, it’s imperative to our democracy that the moderator look sad or concerned, give the opinion that the answer didn’t really satisfactorily address his concerns, and ask the question over again.
I have a friend who does not routinely vote in the general election. He actually became interested enough this season to watch this debate… ugh! That had to do more to kill voter interest than anything that has happened so far.
Hey Buzzcut, I think you’d fit right in with AM nutjob radio. Geeesh!
And now for another total non-issue: I don’t care a whit about what the candidates wear, or how their voices sound, but did someone tell Hillary to look everywhere *but* the camera? Her eyes were flitting around so much she appeared to be on drugs. Obama shifted between looking at the commentator (or so I assume) and the camera, which was far less distracting. I couldn’t believe she was still doing it after the break – no staffer (or camera-crew personnel) stepped in to say “cut that out?”
Flag pin lady (Nash McCabe) is quite the character, and was already well-known to the press when ABC chose her to grill Obama about whether he “believes in the flag”. She had already been identified as opposing Obama only on this issue, in a New York Times story, going on at length about how whenever he is on TV she specifically keeps “looking for that lapel pin”.
She also validates Obama’s bitter comments, with her life appearing to be a living illustration of his “bitter” comments.
http://mcclatchydc.com/227/story/34071.html
She goes on and on about the economic misery she and her husband have been through, his disability, medical nightmares, etc. Yet she clings pedantically to whether one candidate is wearing a pin on his lapel. And she is bitter. Oh is she ever bitter. You see, Obama “rose like a rocket”, and it’s just been too fast and easy for him, while Hillary has “struggled for years” like she has. I feel just super that someone like this effectively cancels out my informed vote. Yay, democracy!
It takes a lot for me to want to kick someone who is chronically down like this woman is. But she has all of these issues in her life, and one vote. It’s tempting to suggest that the next time hardship befalls her, she might try rubbing a flag on it.
Glenn Greenwald has quite effectively refuted Buzzcut’s right-wing propaganda claim that this petty trash is what the American people want. It is what the Establishment media, seduced by the lure of being insiders, allow the right-wing propaganda machine to manipulte them into promoting. All actual evidence disproves Buzzcut’s claims, which drip with the Straussian contempt all neoconservatives feel toward the vast majotity of Americans.
To be a good Christian do we have to wear a crucifix? And if we wear a crucifix should it have to compliment our attire? And if a person isn’t Christian is he a ‘real American’?..This is certainly a question that is being discussed by some..
Likewise, can we be patriotic without wearing a flag lapel pin? This is the current big cultural divide symbolized by the lapel pin debate.
During the Vietnam war era,as I was starting my adult life,the pro-war crowd began flying the American Flag as a support of the war,and the ‘hippies’ started abusing it publically,to show opposition, and the flag became more of a political symbol than a patriotic one.I stopped flying the flag then ,because I didn’t want to be among the ‘radical conservative’ types.It had nothing to do with being, or not being, patriotic.
So the American flag seems to have become a partisan symbol as early as the 60s. I do fly the flag again on appropriate occasions,but it took me a long time to get over this politization of patriotism.
As I read though the above exchange of 26 posts this is what seems to be the common thread. First it was patriotism that became offically politicized and then it was religion. No wonder the country is divided.
I think I can remember when it all started. Up until the Vietnam war we were still in our post ww2 mode: ‘America saved the world and we can do no wrong’ It was virtually impossible to think otherwise..
I guess I don’t know my history well enough to know for sure, but my suspicion is that the period of unity, such as it was, during the WWII era was somewhat abnormal. My guess is that the various factions were cheerfully politicizing whatever came to hand during the pre-WWII era as much as they are today.
Doug,
You make the point that many of us put aside when we figure things out for ourselves… There is a history back beyond what we can personally remember and it also puts into a new perspective the old French saying that ‘the more things change the more they stay the same’.
Like it or not when running for president character counts.The questions asked by Gibson and George S were well within bounds.There hasn’t been a debate since the Wright story broke or the “bitter” comments so he needed to comment in a debate about these two controversies.Did these two gang up on Obama?Sure!But no more than Brian Williams and Russert ganged up on Clinton in the NBC debate.For those who wanted a discussion on substantive issues are you serious?These two have debated 20 other times if you don’t know what positions thay have on the issues by now you never will.There’s very little difference between the two on the issues.
Ths guy Wright amazes me.He preaches Damn america from the pulpit and that america is controled by rich white people yet he is currently building a 10,000 square foot house in Tinley Park Illinois, a nearly all white gated community next to a golf course.He currently has a 10 million $ line of credit attached to this property very interesting indeed!
I hadn’t thought it possible but I wouldn’t be surprised to see McCain win this Fall.Obama is the most liberal senator in the US senate and associations with his bitter comments,Wright and former Weather Underground terrorist Ayres won’t help him either.
As for as Shales and Obama supporting left leaning bloggers what did you expect them to say when the Messiah came under attack?Please don’t take my statements as being a supporter of Clinton or McCain frankly I don’t care for any of the three candidates!Should be interesting to see who wins between Obama and Clinton in Indiana however McCain will win this Fall you can count on that!I wish Indiana would move their primary up sometime since we usually don’t matter.
Well now that PTN’s vomitted on the discussion…
Wright has a line of credit, and it pertains to presidential politics how?
I’ve been hearing this departure into trivia like lapel pins and the opinions of people Obama happens to know classified as “character.” Before we get too deep in the weeds, I’d like a precise definition of “character,” so that we can apply criteria equally to all sides.
For the time being, the vibe I’m getting about “character” is something along the lines of “a pretext for disliking a guy I didn’t like in the first place because he’s not on my team.”
Olbermann has eight questions for McCain in a similar vein to the ones asked of Obama. Included were how many times did he use prostitutes, why did he obstruct an investigation of Keating in a scandal that cost taxpayers billions, why did he commit adultery, why is he friendly with G. Gordon Liddy (he failed to mention how Liddy claims he was on tap to kill columnist Jack Anderson, burn down the Brookings Institution, etc. which is certainly heading toward Ayers territory, not even getting into the Watergate break-in), etc.
Like it or not Wright,Ayers,bitter comments the whole gammit will be general election issues used against Obama.I’ll tell ya why the Wright 10 million $ credit line and everything to do with that stuff matters in a presidential discussion because Obama sat in this mans church for twenty years listening to his anti-american racists comments and all the while the good reverend preaches about rich white people and damn america he’s cashing in on this hateful rhetoric and is or was Obamas spiritual mentor.Olberman is he still on the air?Not exactly a guy with a wide audience but whatever floats your boat.Today on Meet The Press Russert had a poll from PA. in which Clinton was trouncing Obama among gun owners which will hurt Obama a great deal in a general election.Conservative and moderate democrats as well as independents vote on gun issues.
Character may well be something used as as a pretext by people who don’t like Obama in the first place.Out of all the things Wright,Ayers,bitter comments and flag lapel pin deal the flag pin is the least of all of these and I don’t care who wears one or not.I still think associations,comments and people like Wright and Ayers matters to a lot of people maybe not.We’llsee Tuesday when we look at the PA results and exit polls.
McCain will get his when the general election rolls around.Age,Keating Five I’m sure plenty of these things will be brought out in the general election.In the end it’s up to the people to decide what issues matter to each individual and vote accordingly.I’m anxious to see how things shake out in Indiana in this primary.
McCain’s line of credit became about $100 million once he started sleeping with someone other than the wife who dutifully waited for him to come home from Vietnam.
Just sayin’.
T,You’re right about McCain’s marital situation no argument here!But all this stuff with Obama is going to be brought out in a general election campaign so may as well air it now .
I guess I don’t know my history well enough to know for sure, but my suspicion is that the period of unity, such as it was, during the WWII era was somewhat abnormal. My guess is that the various factions were cheerfully politicizing whatever came to hand during the pre-WWII era as much as they are today.
From what I’ve seen, the period of unity was far longer than, say, 1945 to 1963, or whatever.
Indiana has tons and tons of towns that were populated by German Catholics, most of whom had schools that were teaching in German until about 1915 or so. On a dime, they stopped teaching in German and really whitewashed all connections to Germany in the runnup and hysteria to WW1.
So… the period of unity was, say, 1915 to 1963. 50 years or so.