The Associated Press has an article on the House passage of HB 1468 concerning puppy mills. The bill passed on an 81-14 vote. Whatever the legitimate concerns its opponents may have had, it would probably be tough for a legislator to vote against the bill after being confronted with images of “A pug with a missing eye. A shih tzu with fur so matted that it cut into its leg, which had to be amputated. A poodle that underwent a controversial medical procedure to prevent it from barking.”
The legislation would add requirements for commercial dog breeders, defined as those with adult dogs that produce 10 or more litters a year. Breeders would be limited to 30 adult dogs that are not spayed and neutered.
The bill also requires commercial breeders to provide dogs with sanitary conditions and an hour of exercise a day, and breeders could not hire staff members if they have been convicted of animal cruelty.
I’m a dog lover, and were I a religious person, I figure there’s a special place in hell for those who abuse dogs. So, if I were a legislator, I suspect I would have a hard time approaching the topic on a purely rational basis.
There’s no need for commercial dog breeders. The shelters are overflowing with “foreclosure dogs” needing homes. If you don’t want a great dog that’s already grown and housetrained–or its offspring– then you probably don’t really want a dog anyway.
Four of my dogs are wonderfully unique, loving, gorgeous creatures that would have made four families a wonderful pet and companion. They live with me because people threw them out like trash.
Many people want a pedigreed animal not a mutt. Nuff said!
That whim condemns many suitable companion animals to death. And this whim causes untold suffering for many dogs owned by Amish (and other) puppy mills. And there will never be enough said.
As someone who has dogs that were rescued from puppy mills, I’m glad to see this happening! Even if you want a pure bred puppy, still check with a rescue organization first. There are always pups that are needing a good home.
This bill is a joke!!! Yes, I am a breeder and a proud one of 15yrs. I take great care of my dogs. They are heated in the winter, cooled in the summer. They have a new building I just built for them! With big kennels inside and outside runs that are 6ft wide by 18 ft. long. They have Ag lime in the outside kennels with mats and mats and bedding on the inside. I love my dogs and can tell you just about anything you would want to know about each and every one of them. I am there when they are giving birth until they are done. I am constantly checking on them and caring for them. You people are trying to label all breeders as puppy mills. This is not true. I do agree that there are bad breeders and yes there should be something done. But, you are trying to put more regulations on raising puppies than we have on raising children. What about all of the neglected children out there? Why aren’t you fighting for them? I love my dogs and would do anything for any of them. But, no matter how you look at it they are a DOG NOT HUMAN. You people need to find new hobbies. I am so sick of you trying to ruin all of the animal industry. I have a right to raise dogs if I want and should have a right to raise as many as I want. I chose not to raise many, but there are others that do raise several. The back yard breeders that are out there will never be completely gone. This is what you claim you are trying to prevent. Well I will just tell you something. Most of your people that have 40-50-100 dog’s lets say, have you ever stopped to think about the investment these people have in those dogs? Most of the time someone with that many dogs are taking good care of them because they have the investment. It’s the people that have 1-2 dogs and just breed them here and there that give the most crappy care a lot of times. They don’t study the breed to know the good and bad of the breed. There for they are not breeding to better the breed. They don’t know what to do if there dog has an emergency during labor or anything to the sort. You people need to look at the big picture here. Who is going to take in all these unwanted kennel dogs when this new law takes affect? Where are they gonna go? Most people want a cute pup not an old kennel dog. Oh, I forgot you want more homeless dogs so you can get more donations and make a killing $$$. Ya, I know you’re not for profit well what ever! I know how that system works. What is the affect going to be on the economy? Everyone is wanting more jobs. Well this bill is a sure way to loose several. Dog food industries, dog supplies who is going to need all of this. I would like for you to figure up how much money the dog breeders in Indiana spend on these things. Well there goes a crap load of sales tax and income tax for that matter. So, your state is suffering also, you will be eliminating jobs and taxes that benefit the whole state. Veterinarians, well I alone spent around $3000.00 at my vet last year. Not just your average Joe spends that kind of money at your vet every year. Oh, and if this bill is so wonderful why are you all excluded from it???? If we need to follow it you do too. For all we know you can be stacking 50 homeless dogs in your garages and not caring for them. Why do you not need the same rules? You know as well as I do there are good rescues and bad, just like there are good breeders and bad breeders. This bill is not acceptable. I believe some sort of rules need to be made, but this bill is not what needs to be done. You people that made up this bill and tried to sneak it through before we had time to respond, could at least consult some well known breeders and work with them to decide on the rules we need to follow. I think if it concerns our business then we should have a say. Why your at it start making some rules and regulations on how people should raise there children and how many they have since you are trying to treat animals as an equal. People have a right to have a pure bred dog if they want one. Also 1 last thing. It is not the QUANITY OF DOGS YOU HAVE IT IS THE QUALITY OF CARE YOU GIVE THEM!
All our pets have come from the shelter – and have all been great.
Friends don’t let friends patronize puppy mills!
Who, pray tell, are you calling “you people?”
That text block rant was so full of burning straw men, we’re liable to burn down the Internet.
I don’t know enough about the bill or about the dog breeding industry to know whether the bill is good policy or not. But your attempt to impute foul motives on everyone who opposes some of the practices at puppy mills and seeks regulation to combat them looks like paranoia bordering on insanity.
If you want to argue that this is bad policy, please do it. I’m sure a solid case can be made. But, in the future, less of this garbage please:
Hey nanderson, blow me.
I’ll get any hobby I goddamn please. I happen to enjoy the one that involves trying to give decent lives to cast-off animals that no one else wanted.
Try getting a real job that doesn’t involve profiting off the mass breeding of animals.
Yeah, WE’re the ones making a profit off “homeless dogs”. Are you kidding me? Are you delusional? You think caring for all the cast-off animals is a path to riches?
Caring for the ones that were thrown into my life like so much trash runs me about $1200 per year in food, and easily twice that in vet bills. One ran me $1200 within a week of finding it. Yeah, I’m ROLLING IN THE DOUGH! Please don’t tell anyone the awesome racket I’m running!
Dumbass.
And just a bit of obvious news for you–if you’re running a good operation, you don’t have anything to worry about, do you?
Doug–
This discussion could be very similar to ones you’ve had about polluters. The puppy mills are able to sell cheap products (puppies) to stores, or like they do down here just by pulling off on the side of the road across from Walmart and putting a little sign up. They externalize the cost of caring for the surplus dogs, the eventually unwanted dogs, the dogs bought by poorly screened owners, etc. Those costs are externalized to communities who have to pay animal control and build shelters, and to people who aren’t comfortable with seeing dogs wander aimlessly in need of help.
This bill will do very little to protect animals but will harm all dog breeders. I have been involved with my breed for 12 years and produced champions, health tested my dogs, study pedigrees for days before I breed my dogs. I travel far and wide for the right match for them. I spend thousands on showing them and caring for them. They eat better then I do. They sleep on our beds and couches. I breed 1 or 2 litters a year and this bill would have me labeled a ‘pet dealer’. My pet puppies go out n spay/neuter contract, limited AKC registration so that they can not be bred. I spend hours interviewing people who are interested in one of my dogs. I check references. It is about easier to buy a car then to get one of my pups. My dogs do not end up in puppy mills, pet stores or ignorant back yard breeder homes. I am NOT part of the problem and am disgusted that responsible breeders are also targeted in these sneaky laws pushed by animal rights activist. The bill supports buyers 100% but has NO protection for breeders from buyers who might just get a burr up their butts over any little thing that pops up. Read the ridiculous laws that have come into effect in Florida for example. Pet Lemon laws.. HOW do these things get passed? People who are responsible owners, breeders, exhibitors need to get off their butts and take these things serious and fight for your rights or they WILL be stripped away by AR creeps who wish to control everyones lives. Punish all of us for the few bad deeds of others. PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS… Tax payer money would be far better spent in educating people HOW, WHERE to buy a family pet. Education is the key here. Not more laws. In fact there are already laws on the books now in every state that are to protect animals from abuse and neglect but they are not enforced. This bill burdens all and does nothing to protect animals from creepy people.PLEASE let your legislators know you oppose this bill and URGE them to VOTE NO on Bill 1468.
Kim,
It sounds like you are doing everything right. What specific harm will this law do to you?
And I’m sorry, but no amount of buyer education will stop some people from warehousing dogs in cages and mass breeding them without giving them adequate care. Why would you advocate consumer education as a solution to that problem, rather than having some standards and enforcing them?
Also, demonstrate how exactly this law “does nothing to protect animals from creepy people”. That’s quite an assertion.
Hey Kim, and Nanderson,
Just for the record, GO WITH IT!!! Every single thing stated in your postings is absolutely true!! I am also a Dog Breeder of 15 years, and a reputable one at that. Many people do not understand, and are not willing to understand, the amount of time and effort that is spent caring for these dogs. I agree there are many individuals all over the US, that are strictly out for the money made selling animals. The real problem is, there are many of us that have given up alot of our own livelyhood, to provide healthy, social puppies to the general population. That includeds, missing our children’s football games, cheerleading, dance recitals, and on and on. Why, you ask? Because our dogs are most important, and they will be taken care of first.. No, we have not been on a vacation for almost 11 years, including a weekend get away.. Why? Because we choose to vacation with our doggies, and unfortunatley, Hotels do not accomadate 20 doggies.. I hope that everyone involved in this “bill” will review all of its details in context. Limiting the number of dogs one can own, clearly prevails, once again, how our Government officials are continuing to take our RIGHTS from us. Just as they are fighting to take our Right to Bear Arms, and our freedom of Religion. Classifying Dog Breeders, and associating them as Puppy Mills, is discriminating as well.. A Dog Breeder, is actually a Profession, very similar to a Veterinarian. We, (Dog Breeders) do not get the recognition, unfortunatley, that some Titled Professions do. Where do the people of this Country purpose to get a family puppy from, if not from a breeder? A rescue? A shelter? Under going extensive background checks, in home visits, being treated as a criminal to adopt a family pet? In turn, getting an animal that may be returned back to the shelter or rescue because of behavioral problems and other issues they would not have to deal with if they had gotten a puppy to train from the beginning. This Bill does need to be re-viewed by many people, not only Animal Rights, but all Dog Breeders, Veterinarians, and Legislation as well. I just hope that after reviewing, the choice will be made to VOTE NO on HB 1468. This bill will affect many people, including EVERYONE voting for or against it. Remember, our RIGHTS are slowly slipping away.. What’s next?? How many children we can have, how many vehicles we can own, how many meals we are allowed each day??? Limiting us to a certain amount of dogs will not stop the problem of neglect, nor abuse… It is not the QUANITY OF DOGS YOU HAVE IT IS THE QUALITY OF CARE YOU GIVE THEM!
Couple of points directed at the style and not the content of your comment. First, all caps don’t add emphasis – they just make it look like you’re shouting. Same with exclamation points. Not sure what to make of the multiple punctuation.
Second, what are you trying to imply by putting scare quotes around the word “bill”? That it’s not, in fact, a bill?
Actually, I will get into the substance a bit. First, the professionals you mention — veterinarians and others — are licensed and regulated; and somehow they have been licensed and regulated for quite some time without the American Republic descending into totalitarian fascism or whatever it is we’re headed for if dog breeders are regulated.
As I understand it, this bill does the following of commercial dog breeders:
1. Require commercial dog breeders (defined as one who maintains dogs who produce 10 or more litters in any 12 month period) to register with the state board of animal health.
2. Requires commercial dog breeders to maintain sanitary conditions, properly dispose of waste and disease contaminated material, prevent infestation by pests and vermin, provide natural or artificial illumination for the dogs, provide adequate ventilation, ensure dogs over 12 weeks get at least an hour of exercise per day, refrain from hiring a staff member convicted of an offense related to animals, give the dog sufficient food and water, not sell dogs that are showing obvious signs of disease,
3. Maintain information concerning the dog’s date and place of birth, date received, and vaccination history.
4. Allow 15 days for the return of dogs who are found to be diseased by the buyer’s vet.
5. Allow 1 year for the return of dogs who are found to have congenital defects by the buyer’s vet.
6. Prohibits more than 30 dogs at one location which have not been spayed or neutered.
7. Prohibits breeding a dog absent certification from a vet that the dog is in suitable health for breeding and is between 18 months and 8 years of age.
8. Prohibits any one dog from whelping more than one litter per year.
It specifically does not apply to an animal shelter, humane society, or animal rescue operation. I don’t think it even tells you how many dogs you can have — just how many dogs you can have at one location without them being spayed or neutered.
Pet dealers — those who sell dogs to the public for profit — are required to maintain a log of the name and location of the dog breeder that provided the puppy sold by the dealer; maintain veterinary records of the dogs sold for a period of 2 years; make the breeder log available to law enforcement officials, and make the vet records available to buyers or prospective buyers.
I don’t get the outrage here. Someone help me out with which particular provisions need to be eliminated or modified and why. General “MY RIGHTS ARE BEING VIOLATED!!!” sentiments don’t actually help me understand that much.
Maybe there’s a Facebook group they can join.
Something like, “Reputable breeders for Puppy Mill operator RIGHTS!!!”
I do not understand the outrage either. Reputable breeders who genuinely care for their animals and provide for them everything they need to live a healthy life need not be concerned. It may be more of a “hassle”, if that is what you want to call it, to register with the Board of Animal Health… but who is taking away your rights? I support this bill. Puppy mills are careless, disgusting operations that only propagate misery.
In response to Weluvpups statement: “Where do the people of this Country purpose to get a family puppy from, if not from a breeder? A rescue? A shelter? Under going extensive background checks, in home visits, being treated as a criminal to adopt a family pet? In turn, getting an animal that may be returned back to the shelter or rescue because of behavioral problems and other issues they would not have to deal with if they had gotten a puppy to train from the beginning.”
Whether or not people obtain a dog from a breeder as a puppy, or a rescue as an adult has little to do with what behavioral problems the dog may develop, and much to do with the dog owner’s understanding of dog behavior and their willingness to learn how to properly train the dog. People who aren’t willing to put in the time and effort to correct a behavior (that has likely developed because of the owner’s lack of understanding in the first place) are probably going to give the dog up to a shelter anyway, whether it is a dog from a breeder or a rescue. There are PLENTY of purebred dogs in shelters and rescues. Now, how did that happen?
I have only obtained dogs from shelters and rescues, and they are wonderful pets. God bless those that work to put puppy mills out of business, and who work to give abandoned animals a second chance at life.
As a hobby breeder who enjoys my breed, I find that this is an interesting issue. I dont think anyone thinks that small breeders who take excellent care of their dogs(far above the standards required in this bill) and are promoting a breeding program that is targeted at improving their breed’s health and temperment, making sure that they place all puppies on spay/neuter contracts, support rescue efforts for their breed, are puppymills. As this type breeder, I deplore the puppy mills, they should be shut down. It is painful to be lumped in with them on a “sexual offender bill”, but the intent of both sides has to be recognized as beneficial to dogs. This bill is just poorly executed. Instead of a sneak attack and attempting to push things through for one side(HSUS), how about some real discussion of the issues and deciding a clear path based on thoughts and ideas? It is the puppy mills and horrible breeders who fight this legislation. I dont see them at dog shows, or any American Kennel Club sponsored events for that matter. Small, responsible hobby breeders dont contribute to the pet overpopulation problem. Instead, small hobby breeders and AKC sportsmen will bring over 30 million dollars into the Indiana economy through AKC sponsored events alone. I dont think anyone in the legislature is targeting this type of breeder, hopefully they can come to some agreement and recognize the difference. Sure, penalize the puppy mills while finding a way to promote responsible dog breeding in the state. Make Indiana a shining example to the rest of the country of how it should be, promoting better breeding and eliminating the deplorable puppy mills that breed for profit alone. I think everyone on this forum can agree, set some standards on care and condiitions for the dogs, the people who are doing it right wont be affected much. I do think the one year warranty language is very vague, it is impossible to form an opinion based on the language of the bill. I know this is a democratic country, but sometimes it seems that lobbyist and special interst groups are dictating policies for both sides, when really the good people could solve this problem in just a few minutes of honest dialogue.
I too am a concerned “hobby breeder”. I have AKC English Springer Spaniels that I show in conformation shows. I’ve only bred one litter in 12 years and in that litter had 3 puppies. If my girl would have had 5 puppies according to this bill I would have to have been registered as a commercial dog breeder. (Chapter 1, Section 7, #2 as well as Chapter 2) I’m sorry that just doesn’t make any sense to me. How can having 5 puppies make me a commercial breeder. I don’t know who wrote this bill but this is ridiculous! It just seems like the State of Indiana is once again trying to get more money. I already pay a dog tax in our county.
I don’t feel that the average person realizes how much money goes into having a dog, showing it to his/her AKC Championship. The dog cost in my breed is $1100 – $1250. and entry fees to the shows and travel expenses were probably $3000 (Probably more but I really don’t want to admit that because I didn’t hire a professional handler, I showed my own dog) Then to do the proper health testing on having their eyes examined yearly, the cost of having the hips and elbows x-rayed and sent to the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals along with their fees, genetic DNA testing for various diseases ($400). So now you’ve shown your dog to it’s championship and you have to wait for the dog to get to various ages to have these health test done and hope that the dog passes these tests. If they pass then great! You wait for the appropriate age to breed and you then try to find a suitable stud dog that will complement the female dog you have and hope that it will compensate for any faults your female will have. So when it’s finally the “right age” and she comes in season you take her to the vet for progesterone testing ($400)to find out if she’s ready to be bred and then make arrangements to get her to the stud dog owner. Of course they may be in another state or across the country. The stud fees vary from $1000 to $2500. Oh and I forgot to mention the costs of the vet from puppyhood, through illnesses and just regular vet visits for vaccinations, heartworm and flea preventative for 3 or 4 years before. OK, so without the costs of regular vet visits, going to weekly training classes with my dog, food, leashes, clippers, scissors, all kinds of grooming supplies, leads, collars and leashes I’ve spent $6,050 plus. I’ve sold two puppies to regular pet homes and kept one for myself. So as you can see this breeding business has made me so much profit – NOT! I feel like I’m really the average person in my situation with showdogs and breeding. It’s not about making the money. It’s about the dogs.
None of this may make sense, but I’ve tried to give you a little insight into my thoughts and how I came to my rationale about this bill and how it will affect many people who do breed dogs for the right reason. I’m guessing many of you have dogs of your own. That said, if your dog is a purebred dog, it’s us little people that keep that breed looking, acting and behaving the way that breed was meant to be hundreds of years ago by trying to breed the very best possible dogs that we can.
I will include a portion of what HB 1468 states:
ARTICLE 21. COMMERCIAL DOG BREEDER REGULATION
Chapter 1. Application and Definitions
Sec. 1. (a) This article does not apply to an animal shelter, humane society, or animal rescue operation.
(b) As used in this section, “animal rescue operation” means a person or organization that accepts within a year:
(1) more than twelve (12) dogs; or
(2) more than nine (9) dogs and more than three (3) unweaned litters of puppies;
that are available for adoption for human companionship as pets or as companion animals in permanent adoptive homes and that are maintained in a private residential dwelling or uses a system of private residential dwellings as foster homes for the dogs. The term does not include a person or organization that breeds dogs.
Sec. 2. The definitions in sections 3 through 8 of this chapter apply throughout this article.
Sec. 3. “Board” refers to the Indiana state board of animal health established by IC 15-17-3-1.
Sec. 4. “Commercial dog breeder” means a person who maintains adult female dogs that produce ten (10) or more litters in one (1) twelve (12) month period.
Sec. 5. “Person” means an individual, corporation, limited liability company, partnership, or other business entity.
Sec. 6. “Pest” means a pest, pathogen, or parasite that may cause illness to a dog.
Sec. 7. “Pet dealer” means any person, or the employee of a person, who:
(1) engages in the sale of dogs to the public for profit; or
(2) sells or offers for sale more than five (5) dogs in one (1) year.
Sec. 8. “Veterinarian” means an individual licensed as a veterinarian under IC 25-38.1.
Chapter 2. Commercial Dog Breeder Registration
Sec. 1. A person may not operate a commercial dog breeder operation without being registered as a commercial dog breeder with the board.
Sec. 2. A person who:
(1) is registered as a commercial dog breeder; and
(2) operates a commercial dog breeder operation;
shall indicate that the person is registered as a commercial dog breeder in a place clearly visible to the public.
Sec. 3. A person who knowingly or intentionally violates section 1 of this chapter commits a Class B misdemeanor. However, the offense is a Class A misdemeanor if the commercial dog breeder maintains more than thirty (30) dogs that are at least one (1) year of age and that have not been spayed or neutered.”
I don’t even know where to start. First let me say this bill is under the disguise of a ‘Puppy Mill Bill’. So adding in a bunch of regulations for the hobby show breeder who has one litter a year is irritating in its self. Any person who has 5 or more puppies in a year is a ‘Pet Dealer’. What does this have to do with a puppy mill? Under ‘Pet Dealer’ The bill states anyone who sells dogs to the public for profit. WHO is going to determine who is selling for profit and who is not? YOU? The HSUS? The state? Do I need to keep a record now of every penny I bring in and a record of what it was spent on so some idiot can determine if I wanted to make a profit or if I put the money back into my dogs/my hobby. PET DEALER needs to be removed from this bill.
If this bill is really to ‘stop puppy mills’ then what does the genetic health of ANY dog sold by anyone have to do with it?
As far as having a vet determine with in a year if the dog has a genetic issue. Well, this is extremely debatable as many diseases are said to be ‘genetic’ but can also have a handful of several other causes. Mange for example.. Many vets will say it is ‘genetic’ and many will say it is not. Vaccines can cause mange. Mange is something ALL dogs have but are not effected by them unless their immune systems are compromised. So you have this vet saying.. GENETIC.. get your money back. and you’ll have this other vet saying multiple vaccines caused it and in time the issue will be cleared up with good nutrition and immune system support. So you see, this is not a black and white issue for some Animal rightist to decide. These are living animals. Not Chevy Tahoes with a bumper to bumper guarantee. This law protects buyers only but does not protect breeders from erroneous claims made by owners or incompetent Vets. and trust me there are plenty of both.
I work my butt off to make sure I am breeding the best dogs possible that adhere to the standard of my breed. I health test, I show, I study pedigrees. I do not want to be included in this bill on ANY level. I am capable of making my own intelligent decisions with my dogs. I spend a lot of time educating people and have helped steer MANY away from puppy mills and pet stores which get their pups from the Mills.
People are blind to what this type of legislation is really about. It’s about Animal Rightist whose ultimate goal is total animal liberation. hey have to go slow in their agenda and sneak these laws in little by little. Once this law comes into effect… Next year it will be adding some more stipulations. WAKE UP folks. This has nothing to do with puppy mills. The agenda is much bigger.
HSUS is not interested in animal welfare and they are not affiliated with local
animal shelters. They provide no significant support to these institutions but
spend tens of millions of dollars on animal rights (not animal welfare)
legislation. HSUS’s interest is in a radical animal rights agenda that promotes
ending all ownership of pets, ending all poultry and swine production, and
substitutes the radical alternative of non use of animals including a total
vegan diet. Position papers and articles in support of HSUS’s agenda are
available on their web site.
Look at Florida’s pet lemon law. Talk about something that snuck under the radar. YIKES.
A dear friend of mine who is involved in the same breed has 3 dogs. 2 of which are Champions. She had a litter and these people took their puppy to the vet and it had round worms which she told the people to have the pup checked, gave them an information sheet on worming dates etc. Next thing you know Animal control is knocking on her door as well as USDA because the vet said the pup was unfit for sale!!! OVER ROUND WORMS!!!!! These people were entitled to a full refund for the dog and able to KEEP the dog over a problem that was solved for 10 bucks!
So you see.. The Florida laws were under the disguise as a ‘Stop the puppy mill’ BS too and like all of these other bills it targets EVERYONE who breeds in one way or another.
You say No amount of education would stop puppy mills. I beg to differ. Take away their customers and see how long they breed. Why would you think that educating people on how and where to buy a puppy from would NOT hurt the puppy farmer? I am against any and all legislation as long as it includes MORE then a puppy mill which this bill certainly does. If its about puppy mills, then MAKE IT ABOUT PUPPY MILLS.
It’s like saying X amount of children are abused each year and to combat that we are going to make the offenders subject themselves to home checks and while we are at it, we will do home checks on EVERY home where children live. We will charge offenders a fee’s and fines to have their children live with them and for those who have not abused their children, there will be smaller fines.
I urge you to read the Animal Rights websites and see for yourself what their real agenda is. It won’t stop at house bill 1468. That’s a guarantee. I do not need or want the government controlling my hobbies and life’s passion in any way shape or form.
Watch the video on WSBT tomorrow after their next story airs. A puppy mill in Koskiosko county with a reported 280 dogs living in a pretty fancy facility. Now here is a guy who can afford whatever fines and regulations are thrown at him but at the end of the day.. He is still a puppy mill who is obeying the law. How is this helping?
The law will not protect animals from creepy people because all they have to do to continue to be a puppy mill is get a special license and keep their facility up to a certain code. The law will not remove 100’s of animals from living in cages and being bred for money.
So what if the cages are now cleaner then they were before the law? The dogs are still LIVING IN CAGES and being bred puppy mill style.
About the ‘no dog can have no more then one litter per year… or the dogs have to have one hour outside their cages daily.. WHO is going to police that? Will the government hire round the clock puppy mill cops stationed at every puppy mill in the land making sure the dogs get out of their cages for an hour? AND.. WHY is ONE hour an even acceptable amount of time to be out of a cage per day? The Bill makes ZERO sense.
If 50 dogs all look similar.. who is going to walk in the puppy mill and KNOW for certain this is the same fluffy that had a litter already this year? The bill is full of unenforceable rules. As I said before.. It’s not really about puppy mills anyway. It’s about taking our rights away from us one page at a time by Animals Rights Activist whose ultimate goal is total animal liberation and for us all to be vegans with no pets. If you think that is an extreme remark then you have not visited their websites. Search “Sea Kittens”. The PETA anti fishing site. Visit the HSUS site. 1468 is nothing more then an Ax to start picking away at our rights and unsuspecting people who are appalled by the faces of dogs behind a cage are sucked into the agenda with out a clue of the bigger picture.
More ignorant legislation… I think it is important to look at the bills introduced in other states so that you can get a clear picture of the agenda of animal rightist. These bills prove that puppy mills are NOT the real target. They are just used as a front to gain support. Little do people realize.. thier right to even OWN a family pet is at stake in the future when these bills pass. http://www.akc.org/news/index.cfm?article_id=3760
This is where Indiana is headed if 1468 passes.
http://www.louisville-pets.com/
This is probably the most informative site on the net about pet legislation. It should scare the daylights out of anyone who owns a pet much less breeds one!
http://doglawsatlarge.blogspot.com/2009/01/bills-introduced-in-nj-ny-me-fl-mn-il.html
How about this one? SOund good to you people who think legislation is a good thing to stop puppy mills? Still think these bills are created for the sole purpose to stop puppy mills? Read a few of these and tell me if you don’t think YOUR rights to OWN an animal are at stake in the near future.
http://doglawsatlarge.blogspot.com/2009/03/fl-numerouse-regulations-are-being.html
Kim– that is scary. Limiting dog ownership to 50 dogs???!!!??? Whatever will we do if we can only have 49 dogs?
The more of these objections I read, the more I believe this type of legislation is long overdue.
So many of the above messages are just semantics exercises. You want to sell dogs, but don’t want to be called a dealer. You want it to be called a hobby.
OK. If it’s a “hobby”, then don’t breed enough to sell. You see, in this country, if you sell something, then you are a dealer.
Perhaps I should just call my medical practice a hobby, continue to charge people, but not be encumbered by annoying regulation or standards.
The most annoying aspect of all of the above messages is the redundant formulation, basically as follows: “I have high standards. The standards in this bill would have no effect on me, for my standards of care are much higher, I don’t have that many dogs, etc. AND I’M MAD AS HELL!!!”
The potential problems with policing dog breeders make me think that the simplest thing is to just limit everyone to breeding one of two litters per year. That would let you “hobbyists” “perfect the genetic makeup of the breed”, which you obviously enjoy, without having tons of dogs in cages. If having standards is just too damn restrictive, then I guess shutting the whole thing down is a more practical option.
T You miss the whole point. It’s not that I oppose someone not being able to own 50 dogs and you know that or should know it. The point is that it won’t and doesn’t stop there. The bills I sent links on were to point out that it went from this small doable rule to now introducing that unwarranted raids can be done on anyone. If you don’t see an issue with that and having some animal rightist knock on your door, barge in and decide if they like what they see and if not.. STEAL all of your dogs, spay and neuter them and forbid you to own one again for 5 years.. you are a sad soul.
Look, I am not for puppy mills. I am against regulations that come from special interest groups when I know what their ultimate goal is. I have done my home work here. I am against it because I know it is the tip of the iceberg and a year from now there will be a new bill with many more regulations that have nothing to do with the welfare of animals and everything to do with the ideals of a single group.
I am not going to waste more time trying to get it through your thick skull that this bill and all others like it are only disguised as a puppy mill bill.
Illinois has a bill on the table now that would call ear cropping and tail docking and dew claw removal mutilation and would be a felony. How about a group of clueless people get together and decide that any procedures performed on humans are mutilation? No more plastic surgery of any kind, no more cosmetic surgery?
How about a group of people who are holistic ban together and start putting restrictions on your practice in conventional medicine?
As far as not breeding enough to sell. This is proof you do not know what you are talking about. My breed can have anywhere from 2 to 15 puppies in one litter. I am supposed to keep all those? Give the ones I don’t keep away for free? (because everyone knows hobbies of any kind are practically free.) Is it a crime to make enough money on ONE litter a year to pay for the job/hobby I do?
There are breed standards set forth by the founders of my breed and it is work to adhere to those. You would not recognize the difference between a puppy mill boxer and a show boxer so you can’t appreciate one more then the other either. Your vision of it doesn’t make them the same.
What is your involvement in dogs anyway? Do you have a family pet or are you just another guy who knows nothing of the sport of dogs but feels like its his moral duty to make rules for others?
Dogs are considered ‘property’ whether you like it or not. Maybe the Government should start telling people how many cars or houses, computers, fish tanks, paintings they can own or sell too and while they are at it, tell you how to park in your driveway.
Maybe come to your office and label you a ‘drug dealer’ for all the drugs you prescribe!! Limit the number of patients you can see in a day and declare to know for a fact you can not do your job right if you are seeing more then 5. Start charging you fines and fee’s for excess medical care under their ideals of what they think you should be doing.
Never mind… I am sure you don’t get it and pretty sure you never will either.
Kim, sorry, but your slippery slope argument just doesn’t hold water. Your concerns are kind of like saying, if we license drivers, next thing you know the government will be confiscating your cars. Well, they haven’t.
We’re assessing the merits of this bill, right here right now. Not any other bills that animal rights groups might want to see passed. And I don’t see the problem. “Commercial dog breeders” are subjected to the strictest licensing requirements etc. To fall in that category you’ve got to have dogs producing a total of 10+ litters a year. Other persons selling dogs (5+ per year) have to do some documenting of where they came from, but nothing like the “commercial” breeders. I think Dawn is wrong that she would be considered a “commercial” breeder.
Kim,
Can you please provide info on this IL bill about “dew claw removal mutilation”? It sounds outright silly, but I’d like to read it.
Regardless, just because one state passes a stupid law about dogs doesn’t mean that other states are not allowed to pass laws about dogs.
Glen, Can’t help but think about the next bill along with this one. I have been following the AR movement for a long time. ALl it takes to fully understand why this bill is only the beginning of a long fight for rights is to look at what has happened in Florida and continues to happen with new legislation. Look at Louisville and how they started with a simple law that seemed harmless. Look at CA who is on the verge of mandatory spay/neuter for all dogs and cats over 12 weeks. Can you not see that eventually there will be no dogs and cats at all in CA? Can you not see the impact this has on the pet industry as a whole. I am not talking about the sale of pets. Vet services won’t be needed once all the spayed and nuetered dogs and cats die off, pet stores will suffer, food manufacturers.
I know it sounds off the wall but ask the Scotts if they thought fox hunting being banned would ever happen.
http://www.thedogplace.org/Articles/Leg/State-Of-Mine/0810-Foxhunting_Witouski.htm
Some reading material for you.
http://www.naiaonline.org/articles/archives/lemlaw1.htm
There are hundreds of articles I cold send your way in effort to help you understand why I can not just focus on this bill. To accept any just opens the door for the next one. Like I said. I am not opposed to stopping puppy mills and having what constitutes a puppy mill defined. But what I can not accept is that show hobby breeders part of the puppy mill bill at all. If this is truly about stopping puppy mills then WHY is someone who has 5 pup in a year even included? I could careless that for the time being it doesn’t sound like a bad thing or that I cold easily surpass the requirements in standards. I KNOW WHAT IS AHEAD. This year they ‘define’ Pet Dealer. Next bill will have unfair rules for pet dealers. For those of you who are just reading THIS bill and thinking.. gee, this sounds great. I ask you to look outside the box. See the whole picture, know the ultimate goals of the AR folks and try to see why this has so many people upset. You simply can not ever understand where I am coming from if you don’t look at what is happening around the country. Check out laws at large.com and akc.org legislative alerts. These bills are nothing more then nails in the coffin of pet ownership.
Kim:
I have nine dogs. Seven of those were dumped on the side of the road at various times. I’ve recovered, fostered, and adopted out another six during the last seven years. I’ve performed an abdominal wall repair on one of them at 1 a.m. on a Sunday after it was mauled on my doorstep by another dumped dog that had wandered by. I have a passing familiarity with dogs. Some of mine are purebreds, some are mixes.
You have an exceedingly bad attitude. A real nasty demeanor. I’m licensed, and you’re bitching about any notion of being licensed, so it’s a bit rich for you to try to compare the circumstances of my profession and your “hobby.” I mean, is it a hobby, or not? Someone wants to have it both ways, it appears.
You think maybe I should be charged some fees, you say? Maybe $15,000 for medical malpractice insurance, $1200 for boards, $500 for my DEA number (that separates me from “drug dealers”), $400 for a “CSR”, another few hundred for a CLIA certificate? Get my drift? See, I’m regulated, and I pay fees. Try to label me a drug dealer and you would just come off looking like an ass. One person who tried to illegally obtain narcotics from me recently exited the premises in handcuffs. You see, I’m regulated by laws and obligated to comply with them.
I also find your “love” of dogs to be a bit off-putting. I know they’re property under the law. But I would never call mine that. They are members of my family. You may sneer at “animal rightists”, but in many cases they are aiming to decrease the suffering of sentient beings who we have bred to need our approval and companionship in order to feel whole. Often, they fight to end needless, gratuitous suffering and abuse of helpless animals who are mistreated partly due to the notion that they are merely “property.”
That was just to address a few of your points. Aside from knocking down strawmen and imagining the most improbable slippery slope scenarios, I’m not seeing a credible argument presented by you or yours. And the dripping contempt of the tone just makes you come off looking like a jerk.
LOL Nice! I would not have expected any different of a reply. Maybe you should be thankful to puppy mills since you would not have your family members if they didn’t exist.
My dogs are my family members but I am not shy to call them MY PROPERTY or protect my rights for the future in the present. Your story is sweet. Glad you gave those dogs a good home. Congratulations you have achieved your ‘hero’ status in the dog world. I am sure you tell everyone who meets them how you saved them all. That must get you a lot of praise. WOW you are wonderful!
I do my part in rescue as well although I don’t spend any time bragging about it or complaining about it. I am not going to try to convince you I love my dogs as equally as you do. I could careless what you think.
You go ahead and refuse to look at the bigger picture. It will only interfere with your position anyway. After all, you have saved some dogs that were discarded as trash. This makes you the expert on how everyone else should behave. You have ran out of argument so your only recourse now is to insult me. I love it! Will the real ‘jerk’ please stand up. :)
I wonder what would motivate municipalities, states, etc., to pass spay/neuter laws?
Could it be that those entities end up picking up the tab when masses of unwanted dogs are brought in? Could it be that they are trying to reduce the amount they have to spend for animal control, feeding, sheltering, and euthanizing?
Could it be that taxpayers are fed up with seeing wandering dogs, and having to pay to deal with them?
But heaven forbid that there be any regulation, any fees on those creating these populations. Just externalize those costs to the population at large, right?
I highly doubt that dystopian vision of a dogless world due to these laws will ever come to pass. As we speak, shelters are jammed full of “foreclosure dogs” due to the recent economic crisis. Many of these are purebred items are just waiting to become someone’s possession.
I have the dogs because I have a weakness for starving, shivering, soaking, frightened, friendless animals. I do it rather anonymously. I discussed it because it is relevant to the topic at hand. You seriously misunderstand me (and probably most people you encounter) if you think I was ?bragging AND ?complaining.
You may have not taken your references to my “thick skull” as insults, but I did. When I responded in kind, suddenly insults are a bad thing. How pleasant it must be for you to have the only shit that doesn’t stink.
Your supposition that I should be thankful for puppy mills is no more upside-down than any of your other arguments. You’ve truly lost.
You should be concerned about this bill if you enjoy having 9 dogs in your life. I have 5. There are many counties that have limits of 2 or 3 animals per household. Just another example of legislators deciding what you can handle. I’m sure if this bill passes, next year it will label you a pet dealer even if you have no litters and will limit the number of dogs you can own. You continue to refuse to see where it is headed and I promise you it will land on your doorstep and give you an unwarranted label too. The rightist don’t care about dogs. They want total animal liberation and will achieve it one page at a time. They say so right on their websites. Who do you think puts these proposed laws together?
They want no one to be able to own or eat an animal. They want no Zoo’s, no animal testing, no farms, no animals in fences anywhere. They want you to never eat a piece of meat again. I have a weakness for abused animals too T. I am just not blinded by them.
You don’t seem to see the difference between a lobby and a legislature. You don’t seem to realize we’re talking about Indiana. When a future comes to pass where animal rights activists succeed in outlawing dog ownership, or farming, or zoos in Indiana, I will admit the error of my ways.
In the meantime, I think your breeder compatriot CG is much more reasonable in his/her arguments. Your position of basically opposing all dog breeding regulation is untenable. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you can have a role in crafting legislation that kicks puppy mills in the ass like they deserve, while not creating unreasonable burdens for the responsible breeders like yourself.
All I can say is that I hope I don’t ever have to come to you with an ‘I told you so’. But ask the Scots if they ever thought fox hunting would be outlawed.
I honestly do understand we are talking about Indiana here. I see Indiana as no different then KY or FL or CA where very tough laws have already passed that prove the ax is picking away at our rights.
My friend in FL that had one litter… She sold a puppy with round worms to some folks down there. The vet deemed the puppy ‘unfit for sale’ as per the FL pet lemon law allows now for ‘pet dealers’ down there. She was to refund them in full,($1500.00) allow them to KEEP the puppy. She had the USDA, animal control and the BBB on her ass in a matter of a few days. She has 3 Dogs! Is a member of our breed club and local clubs. Health test all of her dogs with the orthopedic foundation for animals. Has had a several best in show dogs. She has a career, her husband has a career, they live in a very upscale neighborhood on the water. She was treated like a criminal over ’round worms’. Something that nearly EVERY cat and dog is born with. She had records to prove they had been wormed by a veterinarian. She has ONE warning now! 2 more and she will not be allowed to own a dog in FL for 5 years.
I am sorry that you can’t understand my passion and concerns about this bill. I have tried to convey that it is not so much what is in this bill that bothers me but rather what I know is coming next. Florida started out the same way guys.. Introduced puppy mill bills, gave anyone and everyone who breeds a litter a new title (pet dealer) and with in 2 years, everyone is a criminal on pins and needles.
In Louisville, you can not walk a dog in public on a leash longer then 4 feet. How is THAT stopping a puppy mill?
I don’t expect you to understand my position here, but my concerns are warranted. I have good reason to fear the future from looking at the present. You have to learn what HSUS is really about and see the progress they have made in their plight before you can get it. Some people never will get it until their dog is snatched away from them because a neighbor said it annoyed them barking on 3 occasions. (read Louisville Pet laws). no proof is needed. Disgruntled crazy neighbor with a bone to pick can make it so you can not own a dog for 5 years over total false claims.
Remember.. these ridiculous laws came to pass because they presented to ‘Stop Puppy Mills’.
Hi All,
T, I commend you on your work. I believe “Rescue” people are Angels from above. You should feel good, you did a good thing. I have rescued dogs, it is hard but rewarding work. But think about this for a second, alot of the focus is being put on “Breeders” in general. Puppy Mill or Hobby, I guess it is hard to define. For whatever reason you are breeding, profit,hobby or ego, somebody is always there begging to buy your puppies. I would like to throw out a few ideas on correcting the problems.
Here they are:
1) How about some form of testing requirements to get a breeders license. Some knowledge, per se. Not just the ability to write the State of Indiana a $50 check and see them in 4 years. Puppy mills dont have the knowledge, period. They couldnt qualify. Inspect the licensed breeders, or better yet, encourage AKC to do it and accept their reports. AKC does inspect my kennel, and they are thorough, and even take the time to educate me on better ways to improve conditions and make the dogs happier.
If you breed without the license, go to jail, or some form of penalty.
2) How about instead of dog limits, perhaps a breeding license for each intact dog, maybe $50 or $100 per year. This would make all breeders police their own dog limits. They would think twice about keeping marginal breeding stock.
3) How about spay/neuter requirements on all puppies sold to unlicensed breeders, stop the backyard, unknowledgable guys.
4) Lets talk about the buyers, make the breeders microchip the pets sold(which I already do). If somebody abandons the dog at a shelter, simply cross index the numbers and hit them with a $500 fine or some penalty. Responsible pet ownership is part of the problem too. Drag them into court and make them pay. Put their name in the paper. Do something for people who look at animals as “throwaways” Breeders are really handicapped when it comes to trying to place their pets in good homes, enough info is on the net to educate buyers to tell you what you want to hear to get one of your puppies.
5) Eliminate puppies in pet stores, it is a joke, we all know it. Puppy Mills get USDA licenses to sell to pet stores, who could care less about where the dogs go. Buy low, sell high. Let the licensed breeders educate the prospective pet owners on their breed. Pet stores support the puppy mills, than lobby to be excluded from the bill, does this make sense to anybody?
Just some ideas, I would love to hear yours. We all know this is a problem, but lets fix it based on knowledge and accountabilty, instead of the way it is being fought now, all or nothing for one side. Everybody knows that is stupid, it makes me sad to see everybody fighting so strongly for what they know is wrong, just because they are afraid of what could happen. Its really simple, licenses for people who do it right, accountabilty for the people accepting responsibilty for ownership, spay/neuter the pet population, and eventually this problem comes under control. Americans love their pets, lets just make sure they get good, well bred ones for their families to enjoy. Its not a perfect world, there will be issues, but address them in a way that shows continual improvement. I know my fellow breeders will kick me, I know animal rights people will kick me, but I am for my rights as a guy who does it right, for all the good reasons, and for the dogs who deserve it. Don’t crush me, let use this forum as a springboard for real talks between real people.
Take a test? Just like anyone can study to get a drivers license, puppy mills and anyone else could study to pass the breeder test.
Having fee’s for intact animals per year is a fine in my opinion, not a fee. Being penalized for having intact dogs is not OK with me.
Spay/neuter all puppies? There is scientific evidence that puppies could suffer from early spay and neuter. Those hormones are essential to have to ensure proper growth. Early spaying of females has been proved to cause urinary incontinence among other things. Read more here:
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf
Many states have mandatory spay/ neuter bills at the table now. It will ultimately lead to poor health in many dogs.
Micro-chipping… This should be up to me and you, not Joe Lawmaker. Micro chips are under fire for causing health issues too. I do not microchip and do not have any desire to do so. I know where my dogs are and in the 30 years I have owned dogs, not a single one has ever ran away or escaped my care nor did they want to. I place my puppies into homes that are responsible. Not once has anyone attempted to breed one of my puppies. When I sell a pup to a pet home, it is just that.. a pet home. They are screened and references are checked. I have a spay/neuter contract prepared for me by a Lawyer who purchased one of my puppies. My pups must be altered by 1 year of age and proof sent to me. I have a file full of proof of spay and neutered pups I have sold. Not once have I been wrong about a home and had someone do ‘accidental’ breeding’s or start a breeding operation. I want to choose when my pups get altered with their health in mind. I do not want to be treated as if I am incapable of ensuring a safe future for my puppies or that I will place them with people who will ‘lose’ them.
I disagree with you that breeders are ‘handicapped’ in placing puppies. Maybe you are not asking enough questions? Don’t have enough stipulations? Not checking references? Doing home checks? My pups do not go to homes with no fenced in yard. They do not live in apartments where they are not afforded the luxury of off leash play and exercise. I do home checks, I call animal control in potential owners county and see if they know them. If they have pets already, I call their vet. Heck I google earth their address and see if I can see the fence! You can!
I do not feel handicapped in my judgement in placing puppies and I have the best homes a breeder could ask for. I am proud of the care I take in placing puppies and don’t need nor want forced micro-chipping or spay neuter regulations or vaccine regulations. Keep it about puppy mills. Leave me alone. I am not the problem, never was the problem and don’t wish to be treated like the problem. I am involved in my breed club and know a hundred breeders just like me in the way they care for the future of our breed. We are ALL against this type of legislation and trust me… NONE of us are making a dime off of our dogs when all things totalled at the end of the day.
Kim,
I appreciate your passion, it sounds like you do a fine job with your breeding program. Obviously you are much better at it than most people. My point is that there needs to be common sense regulations on both sides. I am not sure the all-or-nothing approach both sides take makes sense for the dogs.
Folks, most cities actually have animal limitation ordinances on the books. In Plainfield, you are not allowed to house more than 3 animals (2 cats 1 dog etc…) if you live on less than 1/2 acre of land. In Hendricks County if you have 5 dogs and you live in the county and not in city limits you are expected to register as a kennel. They also expect your 5 dogs to be spayed and neutered if they are not being used to breed. I think most will be surprised by how many cities have these type of ordinances. So let’s move the discussion onto the bill.
The bill helps strengthen a very poor Indiana definition of animal cruelty. When a police officer has to go out and pry a dead, frozen, dog from your fence in yard because it was -20F and they can’t arrest you because you have some food and frozen water nearby…well that is wrong. This is the type of testimonial that was given to the House and to the committee that was working on this bill. (which has not been signed into law.) I would all hope we would find the above ‘true’ story horrific. Since, food and water was provided leaving a dog outside to freeze to death is not considered animal cruelty under the current law. Redifining what is considered animal cruelty needed to be defined. Now we may not have enough police and inspectors to keep an eye on animal cruelty, but that is where the public can play a role…I can call the police and if you are breaking the law you can get cited or arrested.
Puppy Mills…currently there are no laws against them. I have spoken with the legislatures who worked on the initial bill, beleve me they are not out to stop all dog breeding, cat breeding, etc…30 unspayed/neutered animals?? One female dog breeding 10 litters in 12 months? Come on you are in the mill business. Mill people don’t care about breed integrity and I would not put the AKC on some pedestal. I love watching dog shows and I thought the AKC would care about breed integrity, but they recieve $30 million dollars in 2006 from mill registries. Pet stores sell AKC registered dogs and I agree you should buy from a reputable breeder who lets you look over the breeding grounds etc…but most people who have bought from a pet store state….’But they are AKC registered and so they must be good dogs’ well, we know that is not the case.
Majority of the industry in this country is regulated. Many professions operate under licensure that you must take a test for etc…to get a state licensure. This demonstrates your competency, but also ensures to the public that you had to meet or the hospital you go to or the car auto mechanic you take your car too had to meet a set of standards for consumers ‘rights’.
It is still a bill that is constantly being tweeked, thus the purpose of going through the ‘House’ then the ‘Senate’ and back to the ‘House’.
I have been a hobby breeder for the past 10 years. I studied extensively about my chosen breed for 5 years before that and have a mentor I work closely with. I specialize in a specific Toy breed and have no more than 3-4 litters per year with the average litter size ranging in 1-4 puppies. The portion of the bill I have the most problem with is the “no more than 5 puppies sold in a year or you’re a pet dealer”. The majority of my puppies are evaluated for show/breeding prospects at 3 months of age and I generally will keep what I need. My puppies ONLY go to select homes with a contract, 1 year health guarantee, etc. AKC mandates that I keep paperwork on each of my dogs and since I have spent over 10,000.00 just to purchase my dogs you can best believe that they are treated like royalty. HOWEVER, the “pet dealer” clause of 5 puppies is just assinine. I have a small breed, but what happens to those who raise Champion line medium to large breeds? Just ONE litter of puppies is more than five!!!! Personally I WISH that something could be done about irresponsible breeding, but this bill will penalize responsible, ethical breeders, rescues, etc., while neglecting the REAL problems! Additionally, ANY TYPE of Government interference into our homes smacks of a Socialist enterprise. I, for one, am sick of the “Nanny Government” telling me what I can and can not do. If maniacal groups such as PETA and the HSUS have their way there won’t be ANY pets. Let’s dig deeper folks and look at the REAL agenda!!! The passing of this bill will set a dangerous precedent and has far reaching consequences; not only for ethical breeders, but for many other organizations and business owners as well. Has anyone asked just how much revenue the dog show in Indianapolis brought in?
“Many people do not understand, and are not willing to understand, the amount of time and effort that is spent caring for these dogs.” -Weluvpups
The law came about because people do understand what it takes to care for them.