I might be getting the real world mixed up with Caddy Shack again, but it was something like that. Judge Smails Superintendent Bennett tells an aspiring student who can’t afford college, “The world needs ditch diggers, too.” “College isn’t for everyone.”
In reality, college — or more to the point, the expense of college — maybe isn’t for everyone. But, I’d probably let parents and families make that decision. Having the top educator send that message strikes me as a bad idea. He should be sending the message that education is valuable for its own sake. Instead, he is sending the message that education is valuable only insofar as it trains an individual for an occupation.
Individual enlightenment and betterment might be fine for the sorts of people who can afford college without government assistance, but for the rabble, your purpose on this earth is to labor for as long as you can without creating negative entries on the balance sheet.
Doug,
I think you are confusing college with post-secondary education. As someone who teaches college, I can tell you not every kid belongs there. We need to invest in trade and vocational education and give those kids who want to work with their hands those skills.
very true, so they may enter the work force at a suppressed wage that now a days doesn’t even constitute a living wage!
Abdul was always fine with the poor knowing their place. He pulled himself up by his bootstraps and is content to make sure no one else has boots
I totally agree with Bennett. We need to stop pretending that someone going to college is always a good thing. It often isn’t. Many times people aren’t suited for college and incurring the debt of college, and delaying entry into the workforce, isn’t a good idea. Having come from a blue collar family, that until my generation had never had anyone go to college, I don’t think there is nothing whatsoever shameful about manual labor. The world does need ditch diggers.
You are correct, Paul, that college is not for everyone. But to see the statement from Bennett to an aspiring student is troubling. And demonstrates the mercenary world view that the educationinal system exists solely to serve industry. And reinforces Doug’s point that higher education is a one-percenter privilege and not a way to build and maintain a vibrant middle class and a growing economy.
My friend was a HR manager for a company in Richmond, IN that injection molded five-gallon plastic buckets. She was trying to convince the high school system to create vocational course in injection molding that would rump train unskilled labor to save a few hundred bucks in worker training that the company should rightly internalize.
It is, however, the job of the high schools to train auto technicians and other skilled workers through vocational programs. But I don’t know the state of Indiana vocational education at this point of time.
With trade unionism waning, one of the last good source of skilled trade education is being lost. Some of this slack is being taken up by community colleges, but not as effectively.
More troubling is the proliferation of certificate programs and proprietary colleges grossly overcharging students for work training that the employers should properly provide. Training medical claims processors, dental chair assistants, other low-skilled labor training costs should be internalized by employers and not funded by the government through student loans and stuffing money in one of the most predatory and valuless industries in the nation, the for-profit education industry. (One of Mitt’s top contributors. Want to wager that budget tightnening will not include cutting back on instantly defaulting loans to the proprietary school industry if Mitt is elected? And want to bet what will happen to “gainful employment” rules if he gets the job?)
There used to be a common theme in education that had to do with helping each student to reach his/her highest potential. I remember that it was included in a lot of schools’ vision and mission statements. How about inspiring and encouraging young people who aim for that rather than deflating their aspirations, Mr. Leader?
If the world needs ditch diggers so badly, why is it always someone else who should dig the ditches? And why are the ditch diggers paid so poorly, if they’re filling such a high-need position?
I agree that traditional, 4-year colleges aren’t for everyone. (Like me, for instance. Unfortunately, it took me 3 years of college to figure that out.) But high schools have all but eliminated non-college prep and vocational classes (since they’re not on any state exams). Community colleges, vocational tech schools, and the like have to be affordable — and really affordable, not the magical-thinking, eternal student loan debt kind of affordable.
I think you need to question the assumption that going to college necessarily equates to education – there are indications that the correlation between these things is dropping, year by year.
“We don’t have a justice system. We have a legal system, and we hope that justice comes out of it.”
“We don’t have an education system. We have a schooling system, and we hope that education comes out of it.”
Anyone that has been paying attention to the (double-digit) annual rises in tuition rates should see much wisdom in Bennett’s words. I know many smart people that went to public school who have student loan payments larger than the average Indiana mortgage. As a lawyer who practices collections work, I am surprised that you don’t appreciate how much of a noise student loan payments can be.
the answer is not “be a ditch digger”
(noose, not noise).
I agree that college is not for everyone. My family is full of blue collar workers, I am practically the only one to have a college degree and I have two. For example, my father (who is now 77) went to Michigan St for three weeks and decided it was not for him, so he was able to come home and become an apprentice at Ford to be a machine repairman and retired there after 40 years. He was able to make a damn good living. Those opportunities are not around anymore, as one of the previous posters also said. But even if someone does not go to college, they still need to be EDUCATED about how democracy works, science, etc so we have people voting who are not low information voters and instead rely on religious fanatics and super pac ads, and Fox News on how to vote. It just seems the Superintendent Bennett just speaks before he thinks…..it seems he could have framed this message much better. I don’t know, our education system is a mess and wages are going down, the rich are getting richer and the rest of us are getting poorer. I am not sure there is anything that can be done at this point.
Bennet’s suggestion that college isn’t for everyone is IMO a welcome change from the US’s mass hysteria that’s grown over the last generation. I like the comments made by others and the recognition that this is a complex deal, particularly the phrase “grossly overcharging students for work training”. People getting out of the military are bombarded with offers for college or vocational training by companies that exist solely to nab the GI bill money.
Example, a friend of mine attended and graduated from an aircraft maintenance school (this one iirc – http://www.spartan.edu). Problem is, there’s very few jobs that come open, so few that the intent of this type of education is clearly not for the benefit of the student, but rather the benefit of the school.
Similarly a recent article described a person who got a PhD in social anthropology, and had large student loan debt. This person was upset that they could only get work as a part-time lecturer and couldn’t make ends meet. Who’d a thunk it ?
I meant to mention that digging ditches or driving a truck for a living is an honorable profession, and kids in high school who wish to pursue such work shouldn’t be made to feel less successful. But they are – the drumbeat for college is built into our society. I’d rather my kid drove a semi than get an MBA from the University of Phoenix.
Bennett’s suggestion that college is for everyone is true, insomuch that not everyone aspires to a career that requires such an education, or that not everyone will appreciate the education for education’s sake.
But Bennett makes his suggestion from a place that if you can’t afford college, it’s not for you. So basically he’s saying that if you come from a family that can’t scrape enough nickels together, you don’t BELONG in college, no matter what your brainpower or career aspirations. That’s just wrong, wrong, wrong.
Well stated, Exhoosier. That was the subtext of of Bennett’s statement.
The right makes the statement that it supports equality of opportunity, not outcome. (I agree with this statement. )But the right then works to undermine the most effective tool to ensure that opportunity, an affordable post-secondary education. Public college expenditures are cut and student aid is cut.
Bingo. My mother came from a poor family, but she happened to be very smart and had an aptitude for science. She obtained her B.S. in nursing (back in the days when that was uncommon) and eventually worked her way up to becoming a top hospital administrator and chief nursing executive. Had Bennett been around in her day, she would have been told, “College isn’t for everyone.” Yet, obviously, it was for her, my grandparents’ socio-economic status notwithstanding. Sup. Bennett’s basically saying, “If you don’t have the money, you don’t need to go to college.” There are poor children who are college material and well-off kids who are not. I was in school with plenty of well-off kids who were not college material. Most of them managed to muddle through and get decent jobs, however.
That the Superintendent of Public Instruction would make such a statement is mind boggling. Well, it would be mind boggling if someone else held the position. In some ways, I’m not all that surprised. Both Bennett and Gov. Daniels believe that college is for a select few. They usually have sense enough not to say that out loud to people who aren’t of their tribe, however.
Sometimes, an elected official needs to know his office and his role. If you’re the top educator, you should be encouraging higher education *as a goal*, not necessarily an outcome- but never, never say dissuade a kid from thinking college. That bridge can be crossed soon enough, if it must.
FWIW- this has been a big think tank talking point of late. I figured sooner or late some politician would take the talking point and not figure out that it has a load of nuance coming with it, and generally screw it up royally. And here it is. I agree with points Paul Ogden makes. I chose my own route to college with it mind that I wanted zero debt upon graduation. That meant a pretty large sacrifice in quality, but on the whole, it satisfied my personality to not have the huge debt. I would have been overwhelmed to face the bills a lot of grads face. Talk about pressure!
I don’t think Sup. Bennett intended any nuance. He meant what he said as he said it.
Abdul started a parallel discussion on this over on his Facebook page, simplifying my point to being one of thinking Bennett is a bad guy for saying that not everyone should go to college. One comment I posted there seems worth repeating here:
Also, I have a real problem when people conflate education with job training. There is a good deal of overlap, but they aren’t the same thing. The point of education is not just to prepare for an occupation. It’s preparation to be a citizen and a fully realized human being.
As Kelly Kennedy Bentley put it:
Certainly there are other ways to continue educating one’s self outside of college. I haven’t been in college these last 16 years and continue to learn a lot. But college is one of the most common ways to expand one’s education.
I just had a passing thought — it’d be interesting to see how many of those advocating pulling back on advocating college for poor kids also get their hackles up whenever public library funding comes up. If that’s the case, likely their concern isn’t really for the poor, debt-ridden student; but more for the indignity of making rich people subsidize the education of poor people.
Very well stated. Your last statement covers my assessment of the right’s aim to control the education of others.
When the cost of education comes up right wingers echo the Ron Paul Canard that if we get government out of education (or healthcare or anyother valuable social and personal good.) The public education model this country embrassed early in its history, as it expanded westward, and as it emerged from World War II and created a propserous country with a broad middle class, was a free primary and secondary education system and widely available post secondary system with subsidized education in college or skilled trades.
And we get anectdotes from those that managed a college education without debt by taking a class a semester and pulling down a job. The old bootstrap harkening.
Anectdotes have value. Let me give mine.
My undergraduate degree at a large state university was completely subsidized by the taxpayers. I was an entertainer in the form of scholarship athlete. The scholarship only changed the wealth transfer mechanism. My parents would have paid for it if the state had not.
My legal education was subsidized by the Indiana taxpayer and paid for by my parents. My LLM was paid for by my corporate employer.
If I wish further college education, it would be almost completely paid for by my wife’s large public university employer.
So by god if I can pull my self up my my football shoe laces and the windfall largesse of others, anyone can. And by god we ought to make them.
Also, I probably assumed a thorough knowledge of Caddyshack to carry the context of this post. I spent 5 years in junior high and high school working in the bag room of a country club; so, for me, it’s a foundational movie.
But, the comment in question is a scene where Danny is trying to butter up Judge Smails. Smails is the head of the country club and determines who gets the caddy scholarship which Danny needs to go to college. Smails is wealthy, smug, very conscious of his class superiority, and indifferent to Danny; telling him that the world needs ditch diggers too — not because ditch digging is an honorable profession to which Danny is better suited. But, because it’s just tough shit if a poor person can’t afford to go to college and, therefore, has to stick with being a grunt, serving the needs of guys like Smails.
A subject dear to me–first in my family to attend college; spent 6 years in college obtaining bs and ms degrees –all school entirely paid by me by working full time and more year round; taught “vocational courses” for over 35 years; and another point is that very uncomfortable with much of Mr. Bennett’s being head of DOE. The almost constant pressure that everyone should go to “college” is not only unrealistic it creates pressures that are not productive. a) not everyone is academically capable of handling any (and mean “any”) strong academic program of study. b) education beyond high school and life long education is a very good recommendation. c) there are various avenues to attain the educational/training necessary for occupational training and personal development needs.
Our current very strong (believe correctly saying “emphasis”) on advanced academics with changes in high school (and younger) curriculum requirements for ALL students is not warranted; constant testing that becomes basis of student, instructor, administrators, and total school rating has not been productive when viewed as to best for all students; and emphasis of adminstrators on courses that bring in highest reimbursement to schools is not beneficial.
I don’t care for Bennet and most of what he stands for or says.
However, my biggest concern in this entire discussion is that you would have to explain any Caddyshack references. Those that didn’t get it immediately should be banned for a month.
Forgot one thing…Carlito, what university did you get a scholarship to? I ask because I’m always interested in what schools have to use tax dollars to support their athletics.
IU.
Actually, the fewer drones that are brainwashed by the commies at college, the better.