H/t Paul O’Malley. No time to comment, but the
South Bend Tribune has a column by House Speaker Pat Bauer. Among other things, he says:
We also promise to give the people of Indiana a chance to decide once and for all if they want daylight-saving time and whether or not our state should be in the Eastern or Central time zone. If there had been a concerted effort to gauge public opinion on these issues the past two years, we could have set this thorny issue to rest once and for all.
Good for Pat. Hopefully DST goes to a referendum and the famed Nixonian silent majority will join me in opposing it.
If DST goes to a vote it will lose despite the constant efforts by the Indianapolis Star constantly running around and finding a few people who like it and writing about how good DST is for all of us common folk who do not know any better.
Shouldn’t DST be on a referendum vote anyway since we the people must live with split time zones which are far more troublesome now since the time difference was only a little over 5 months a year between Eastern and Central time zones and either the late sunsets in the Eastern time zone in the Summer or the early sunsets in the Winter in the Central time zone or the late sunrises in the Eastern time zone where it’s still dark at 8:00 A.M.
I will be surprised if the Senate, the Chamber of Commerce, and their paid lobbyists will ever let the public vote on DST because they know it will be defeated!!Remember this that although the skeptics can say that a time zone referendum is non-binding which is true this is NOT the case with DST.Any state with split time zones can choose whether they wish to observe DST or not.
So there is no reason we citizens should not be allowed to vote whether we want DST or not.Let majority rule.I for one would except what the majority VOTES they would like to have happen instead of a bunch of politicians.
The DST isn’t interesting to me. This article, finally, tells us what the Democrats want to do in the Legislature in 2007.
It’s nice to see the Democrats finally come out with something resembling a plan for 2007, after spending two years yelling “No!” and offering nothing.
So let me sum up what I’m seeing from Bauer’s article:
* Increased school funding.
* Property tax relief.
* Stop/more review of privitization.
* Repeal state gas taxes.
* DST
* Reduce health care costs
* Economic development
* Punish employers for employing illegal immigrants.
OK, so from a fiscal perspective, that’s
* spend more
* receive less
* spend more/receive less/nothing (you can spin it several ways)
* receive less
* no impact (or very small)
* spend more
* spend more
* spend more (to enforce a new law, it costs more).
Ya think Pat has any idea how to pay for any of that? Are we looking at increased taxes? Cuts in programs – and if so, which?
I mean, it’s a heck of a wishlist. But as far as coming out with viable plans that include both what they want to do and how they’re going to pay for it, the Indiana House Democrats sure don’t seem to get it.
Now, I’m not a card-carrying Democrat, but I think you’re being very unfair with some of those:
* Increased school funding.
I think it would be better to CHANGE school funding. There is enough money there, but the state puts rules on how you can spend it. Take the strings off so local school corps can decide how to best spend the money instead being told “This money is for techers, this money is for football fields, this money is for buildings, this money is for buses…”
* Repeal state gas taxes.
Yes, dumb idea. Aren’t Democrats supposed to be better about being green? Isn’t the gas tax a good way to fund roads based on use, lower depandance on fossil fuel, and encourage public transit? I say raise it high enough to make alt fuel look better.
* Reduce health care costs
I don’t think that is spending more. That is making it so more people are able to work. More people working, more money.
* Economic development
ECONOMIC. As in development ment to being in more money. Sometimes you have to spend money to make money.
* Punish employers for employing illegal immigrants.
Spend less. It is easier to examine a few 1000 businesses than 1,000,000 people (or however many we have in Indiana now)
Jason, I’m not a card-carrying Republican… and I didn’t say there were all bad ideas either… I just noticed that there weren’t two sides to them. I mean, if we both agree that (for instance) economic development is something Indiana needs to do, then part of that discussion should include to how to pay for it.
Mitch Daniels’ ideas might not be popular, but at least he has both revenue generating ideas and expenditure reduction ideas.
And, more to what I like, he has the idea that state government shouldn’t leave its debts to the next generation. I like that idea.
Pat Bauer didn’t make one suggestion on how to fund a single one of his ideas. I suggest Bauer spend more time on good ideas and thinking about the future and less time whining and moaning about the Indiana Republican Party.
I am not a Pat Bauer fan but agree that the issue of time needs to be put on the ballot for 2008. I won’t be eligible to vote on that issue since I no longer live in Indiana, but do think it needs to be put to a voter’s test. Looking at all of the various websites and how close this issue is in Indiana, at least it would give some hard numbers for the DOT to look at, my relatives and friends who live in Indiana all have differing opinions. I remember my mom and dad talking about this issue, I had forgotten that the ET/CT timeline was at the Indiana/Ohio border prior to 1961. I was born in 1958, so I don’t have any recollection of the time line at the Indiana/Ohio state line being 12 months a year. At least if Indiana were to go Central, there would be an hour time difference all the time instead of part of the time. That would probably help to reduce the confusion.
Bauer’s DST Idea may pass the House, but it wont pass the Senate & I’m sure he knows this. It’s time to put this issue to rest. Let’s face it the old system being on standard time was an absolute joke (effectively 3 time zones in this state) Granted no matter how you slice it, no matter what time zone this state is on a lot of people are going to b$#Qch!, but at some point we need to move on and focus or time and rescources on more pressing issues for this state.
Just my $.02 worth……….
The correct time to move on would have been 30 years ago when we reached a workable compromise. The “move on” argument just doesn’t work because of how we got to the current situation. After 30 years of continuous efforts to change the year round Eastern Standard Time solution, the pro-EDT faction got their way on the strength of several questionable procedural maneuvers, abandonment by the Governor of his stated preference for Central Time, and a 51st vote cast by a one-term legislator who renegged on his pledge to his constituents that he would never do this.
As a practical matter, you’re probably right that whatever passes the House won’t pass the Senate and, in any event, would be vetoed by the Governor.
But, the decades of bitching we’re probably in store for is a direct result of not having left well enough alone and the ham-fisted way in which the DST bill was passed without any real consensus.
Here we go again. You notice that the zealots always call it Daylight Saving Time instead of it’s proper name – Eastern Daylight Saving Time. Daylight Saving Time by itself means very little. I am perfectly willing to accept DST if it is Central Daylight Saving Time.
Paul am I right that Michigan had a number of referendums and EDT failed on each until 1970 when it passed by a slim margin. Then it was time to put it behind and go on to more important business. 1969 and 1970 were the only 2 years that Indiana observed EDT. We will never know how Michigan’s vote would have turned out if we had been able to stay on EST.
Jim B.,
No, the choice of time zone is a distinct issue from Daylight Saving Time. There are people on this blog, and in the state of Indiana generally, who are relatively (or completely) indifferent to which time zone we’re assigned, but do have a preference for or against the process of changing clocks on a seasonal basis — that’s Daylight Saving Time.
Characterizing as “zealots” people who are capable of telling unlike things apart is evidence of confusion on your part. Whether this confusion is something you possess, or something you are trying to cultivate, remains to be seen.
Pat Bauer is correct, logically and politically, to recommend dealing with these distinct issues separately. Ideally, a referendum would take the form of a preferential ballot, so that people could rank-order the four possible combinations, but apparently the electoral innovations of the Marquis de Condorcet 220 years ago are too sophisticated to be adopted in the United States.
My Branden aren’t we touchy today. I confess that I didn’t identify the zealots but I thought anyone that reads this blog would understand that the zealots are not the people that are opposed to DST for any zone. The zealots are the ones that imposed Eastern Daylight Time and said it was only DST to make it more attractive. Please notice that the newspapers, television, politicians always refer to it as simple DST not EDST. The reason for this is the zealots have successfully promoted DST as progressive and it is easy for them to dismiss their opponents as backward reactionaries.
Of course DST and zones are different issues but for DST to have any practical meaning it must be linked to a time zone. The 2005 General Assembly put the cart before the horse and decided the DST issue first. Logic would say the zone issue should be decided first because there is a practical difference between Eastern and Central Daylight Time. One can reasonably be against Eastern Daylight but for Central Daylight. For many the difference is the same as the difference between night and day. With Eastern Daylight Time Indianapolis has the latest sunrises every day of any city its size in the country. This means most have to drive to work in the dark for the better part of a year. There are kids in my neighborhood that catch the school bus in the dark almost the entire school year. And I prefer that late ball games end at 11:30 instead of 12:30.
It might surprise you that in 1956 we unsophisticated Hoosiers had a referendum on time zones and Daylight Saving Time using a variation of the Condorcet Method with 4 choices as you have suggested.
YES NO
Central Standard Time 626,794 209,423
Central Daylight Time 273,633 350,667
Eastern Standard Time 511,536 243,013
Eastern Daylight Time 147,095 397, 148
The 1957 General Assembly made Central Standard Time the official time for Indiana and allowed for 5 months of Daylight Saving during the spring and summer. This upset the zealots that wanted Eastern Standard Time. They promptly circumvented or ignore the law and any attempt to enforce it was met with legal challenges. They even had the audacity to draw a map in 1958 showing many eastern counties in the eastern zone.
The zealot’s bible says that to enter “Commerce Heaven†one must steal an hour from the morning sun and give it to the afternoon. As soon as DOT restored 8 Indiana counties to the Central zone the zealots went into these counties preaching their gospel and spreading discontent. The business people were warned that if the county commissioners didn’t change their petitions they were all going to hell in a hand basket.
The reason I call them zealots is Chamber of Commerce is too benign.
Sorry for the disarray of the voting results. I was unable to copy and paste a table from Microsoft Word. The six digit number to the left is the YES vote and the number to the right the NO vote.
The referendum was widely criticized at the time for being too confusing. But the results show a clear preference for Central Standard and Eastern Daylight the clear loser.
This is the only referendum on the time(s) issue ever placed on the Indiana ballot. Given the results, the Indiana Chamber of Commerce will contest any attempt to do so again. They simply don’t trust us unsophisticated Hoosiers.
Jim B.,
I’m touchy every day. ;-)
Thanks for the clarification regarding who you think the “zealots” are. I have to admit I don’t read the Star-News’s editorial page often enough to have seen the equivocating you describe. If it happens, then I completely agree that it’s manipulative and deceptive. (What a surprise from Gannett…)
Your citation of the usage of a preferential ballot in Indiana to choose a combination of time zone and DST fascinates me. I’ve given talks before audiences on Condorcet methods (as well as Borda count, Approval, and IRV) before, and was unaware of this example. I will see if I can scrape together some formal cites for it. If I can verify this information, I owe you a debt of thanks.