The Perry County Commissioners had a fairly contentious meeting on the subject of time zones according to the Perry County News. Last month, the Perry County commissioners decided to petition to move from Central to Eastern time. Apparently this caught some folks by surprise. Among other things, opponents to this move think a lot of ordinary citizens support the petition because they simply don’t understand it. Apparently a fair number of Perry County citizens think the commissioners are attempting to return to not observing Daylight Saving Time. They think they’ll be able to go back to the way it was and not have to adjust their clocks.
I’m not so sure Eastern supporters really think that. Central supporters almost always say the Eastern supporters believe that (implying Central supporters are informed, and Eastern supporters aren’t). However, I haven’t heard anyone say that the support Eastern so they won’t have to switch the clocks. Most say they support Eastern either for their own work reasons, or because they don’t like the early winter sunsets.
My guess is that there are a fair portion of Hoosiers who are pro-Eastern, pro-Central, or neither who don’t really know what the terminology means but just want things back the way they are.
There are certainly strong reasons to be pro-Eastern if you have to pick one — the most obvious being that 4:30 sunsets suck a lot.
I have talked to people who believe going to Eastern time meas going back to the way things were.Several people from the other counties who support Central time have made the same comments also.I can’t speak to the truthfulness of their statements only my own.
I’m one who believes 8:00am darkness and darkness not until 10:00pm in the middle of June is also not a good thing.
Doug,
Your statement about thinking there are a fair portion of pro-Eastern and pro-Central or neither rather people that just want things to go back the way they were is correct.
T,
Early Winter sunsets seem to be the number one complaint against Central time.The work reasons go both ways.A detailed study of the work commuter numbers for the 6 counties shows the least inconvenience is if the counties remain in the Central time zone.However I’m sure if for example a person lives in the Central time zone but commutes to Eastern for work or business the overall commuter numbers do not matter to you.You just know you personally are inconvenienced.
Usually someone in the Perry County online arguments will say they prefer Eastern, but they really would prefer to just go back to the way it was. The response is usually some variation of “BUT THAT’S NOT AN OPTION!!!!!” Really, there are a lot of options. Maybe not today. But further clock manipulations aren’t impossible. These time divisions are made by us, and can be changed. Usually after exchanges like the one above, the Central supporter then claims the Eastern supporter doesn’t understand that we wouldn’t be going back to the way it was.
I think the thing I both love and hate about the time zone debate is that it is fairly free from labels. It really isn’t a conservative/liberal thing, a Rep / Dem thing, minorities, religions, and even geography to some extent don’t seem to have a REAL solid determination on what a givin person thinks about the time zones.
It is also a debate that both logic (time zone boundries, support of commerce) and emotions can support either side.
While I wish everyone would see things my way (DST abolished worldwide and GMT used worldwide), the more I try to watch this as a uninvolved 3rd party, the more facinated I am with it. Almost every other debate has its groups that drive one side or the other. This one is unique.
Time Zone update for SW counties
In the local Daviess county paper this evening where they talk about this weeks Daviess county commissioners meeting county attorney Jeff Hayes says the DOT yet again has asked for follow up information.Hayes states incorrectly that this is more than likely because Perry county has now joined the repetition effort.In point of fact Perry county stated they will only repetition if the other five counties request is granted.When Perry county inquired to the DOT about joining the Joint Petition by the other five counties they were told they would have to file a seperate petition on their own.
I would like to read this latest request for more information.The last request November 14th Central time supporters answered the questions before Ice Miller LLP who filed their response or follow up info on December 6.
Yet again the December 6 response by Ice Miller LLP was full of misleading statements and incorrect facts.The first page alone of this response contained a incorrect fact which was pointed out to the DOT.They also side stepped a couple of questions asked by the DOT because the correct answers to the questions would not help their case for Eastern time.
I suspect this is more of the same from the DOT since Central time supporters submitted two lengthy and well written rebuttals to Ice Miller LLP’s December 6 response.The three well written rebuttal petitions prepared last year by Central time supporters countering Ice Miller LLP’s first Joint Petition where the DOT actually referenced some of the questions in the November 14th correspondence to Ice Miller LLP asking them to correct and clarify their first effort proved most effective.
What’s playing out in SW Indiana supports my contention that, generally speaking, the rank order of preference in this state is:
1. EST
2. EST/EDT
3. CST/CDT
When it boils down to it, people feel more robbed and violated on CST than EDT. Central Time proponents try to play down popular opposition to the early sunsets, but that opposition is real and not offset by late EDT sunsets in most people’s minds.
Central Time supporters cannot gloss over the real-world experience that this winter brought. If their contention of misunderstanding is true, we should be seeing a rash of applications to defect to Central Time based on the experience of EDT, but, there have been none and I doubt any are forthcoming.
If developments are thus in SW Indiana, imagine the statewide reaction to CST. It would take one winter of that to put statewide Central Time to bed for another generation.
That said, I don’t think that the “convenience of commerce” is served by moving the SW counties back to Eastern, but the DOT may do it anyway, recognizing the general trend of the state toward vast majority Eastern…but who knows?
If we go to a statewide Newfoundland-type half-hour offset with DST (-5.5 GMT in Winter and -4.5 GMT in Summer), we can solve all of this: No post-9 p.m. sunsets, very few pre-5 p.m. sunsets in Winter, the sun would never rise after 7:30…and pretty much everyone would be pissed off! But, since we would observe DST, at least we’d be ‘in sync’! Would anyone like to sign a petition for that arrangement?
Any thoughts from anybody about what the DOT will do as far as granting or denying the SW counties Joint Petition?I thought for sure they would grant the Joint Petition because Governor Daniels is asking them to and they usually do what he asks.
Now I’m not so sure.Since this is the second time Ice Miller LLP has been asked for follow up info and more than likely as before to clarify misleading statements and incorrect facts.The DOT knows that if they grant the Joint Petition yet another repetition effort will be forth coming from Perry county and I wonder if the DOT will be thinking about the possibility of Spencer or another traditionally Central time county thinking about petitioning for Eastern time and possibly causing more conflict in the area.No previous Central time counties have shown a interest as of yet in wanting Eastern time but you never know.When the dust settles and commuters find themselves on the wrong side of the time boundary if it is moved yet again who know what might happen.One wonders if the DOT is considering these things and might simply deny the Joint Petition and put a stop to evrything for a while.I won’t say put a stop to the debate because as long as there is a split time zone in the state that will never end!!
Phillip,
My question is: When will Perry County re-petition for ET? I seems like they would be doing it now.
I’ve always thought DOT would return these 5 counties to ET because it’s the best way to keep most of Indiana united in one time zone.Isn’t unifying Indiana into one time zone the solution both sides hold dear? But if DOT determines that these counties have more in common with CTZ/Evansville than with the rest of the state,DOT will leave them observing CT. ..It will be an interesting decision,won’t it?
Lou,
According to the Perry County News the Perry county commissioners voted to repetition for Eastern time only if the five SW counties request for Eastern is granted by the DOT.
However they did inquire to the DOT if they could join the five counies Joint Petition and were told they would have to prepare a seperate petition.
As far as returning the five counties to Eastern time I’ve always felt that would happen but now I’m not as sure.The point you make about that unifying more of Indiana in one time zone is some of the language I expect the DOT to use if they grant the Joint Petition.
I still contend we have more in common with the Evansville region of counties to the south, a point in which the DOT agreed with and based their decision on last year citing regional connections as the overriding factor for their decision.I think we have proven through submissions to the DOT this is true.However the question will be do regional connections still outweigh unifying more of the state under one time zone?
It will be a very interesting decision.Won’t that be something that after all of this things go back to the way they were as far as the boundary?
Also the Perry county commissioners have called the Indiana Economic Developement Corporation I think that’s the name for assistance(money) if they file a petiton.This is the entity I believe that pays Ice Miller LLP.Not sure of the name of this agency but someone can correct me if I’m wrong.
If the DOT said that uniting more of Indiana under the same time zone was a good reason for granting the petition, that would run contrary to just about everything that defines “convenience of commerce.” There is very little reason, aside from perhaps the convenience of state government, to unite Indiana into one time zone. It’s a force-fit either way–Central or Eastern. “One-state, one time” is just not going to work here and it just isn’t right to force-fit these counties into Eastern if that is not rightly where they belong. I oppose that tactic being used in favor of Central, and it should not be used in favor of Eastern, either.
While I’m quite content to live on the Eastern side of the divide, it seems to me that there are no compelling “convenience of commerce” reasons to grant the petition and I’m sure the DOT feels very uncomfortable right now because they know this.
All of this could have been avoided if the county commissioners had kept their powder dry a bit and encouraged people to get educated on what the ramifications were for the respective options before knee-jerking to petition for Central in the first place. It just proves the old saw that you better be careful what you wish for…in this case, the SW counties got it, and might just have to live with it regardless of popular opinion.
Steve,
I agree with most of what you say.Here’s the bind the commissioners were in and believe me when I say I am not trying to defend these guys and helped defeat one in Martin county last election cycle.What happens is the six counties that joined the Central time zone have a lot in common with each other and to the original Central time counties to the south and when Knox county who also has a lot in common with Illinois since they are on the border heard from the people the first go around they wanted Central so when Knox went Central Daviess followed then Dubois (the key county in the area) Pike went and last Martin.A domino effect if you will.Perry was in there somewhere in this order also.
The counties I speak of and this region where I live have mutual connections to each other and the original Central time counties to the south than the Eastern time counties they border which is what the DOT said and Governor Daniels the first go around.
Then some people from inside the counties and from Eastern time counties who commute to our Central time region to work complained which I expected when they found out they would be inconvenienced.Believe me these commissioners have no clue about what they are talking about and didn’t even read the Joint Petition prepared by Ice Miller LLP.
The thing is if the boundary is moved again you’re gonna get a different group of unhappy people who will be inconvenienced from commuters who commute from the original Central time counties to our region and people from our region who will be commuting to these counties.It’s a catch 22.
The commuter numbers when studied favor the SW counties remaining in the Central time zone with the exception of NWSC Crane employees who commute to Martin county to work from the Eastern time zone.However allowances have been made such as flex time and somehow because of this my sister who lives in the Eastern time zone but works at Crane has managed to get a hour overtime out of this deal and is not complaining anymore!
Lou
This is the most idiotic thing you have said. The only way the state can be united is for all 92 counties to be placed in the same time zone. I want to remind everyone that all of Indiana was unified before 1961 when a private lobbying organization, the Indianapolis Chamber of Commerce, convinced the Interstate Commerce Commission to divide the state. The poltically appointed commission ignored the recommendation of its senior career professional, Thomas Pyne, who had conducted a 2 day hearing in Indianapolis in April of 1960. He announced in September 1960 that he was going to recommend that the Chamber’s petition be denied.
Steve, I don’t know where you get your information that eastern is the most popular. All the polls I have seen show a decided preference for central. There is wide spread confusion that the counties which were returned to their historical place in the central zone were changed the most when in fact we in the eastern zone experience the greatest change by going to Eastern Daylight Time. The Indiana Chamber of Commerce is taking advantage of this confusion. As Phillip says many people think that by returning to eastern they will be returning to the same time they had before 2006.
After Candidate Daniels said he wanted DST, he led us to believe he was in favor of CDT. I am convinced if he had said he wanted EDT he would have lost the election. Many people are in favor of DST but none have stated a preference for Eastern Daylight Time specifically.
Jim B.,
Great info as always.I never have been able to convince some that if we were on Eastern time and observing Daylight Saving Time that it is more of a change than being on Central time and observing DST.As you know while observing year round Eastern Standard Time we were always in line with the Central time zone from first Sunday in April to last Sunday in October which is almost 7 months!
Despite what has been stated I have spoken to people who are in complete belief if our counties are moved back to Eastern time we will be on the old system and not move our clocks and there is no changing these peoples minds!I have heard the same from people in Knox,Pike and Dubois counties also but as I stated earlier I can’t confirm that info is true.I just take the peoples word for it.
I know I’ve said this a million times but I never have got a explanation from the Chamber of Commerce as to why only EDT will do.I’ve emailed them questions and never have gotten a response.I keep hearing them say only EDT will do but we have really only been in line with the East Coast or Eastern time zone which observes DST around 5 months a year for over thirty years now!I don’t get it?
I do not want to hear the Chamber state this is because that if the counties are switched to Eastern more of the state will be one time because that is not the argument they used for EDT when this whole thing started!
Jim B wrote:
I do not want to hear the Chamber state this is because that if the counties are switched to Eastern more of the state will be one time because that is not the argument they used for EDT when this whole thing started
———————————–
This is true,but the arguments have indeed changed due to circumstance. CT is no longer seen as a feasible way to unite Indiana but looking at today’s TZ map these 5 counties observing ET would unite more of Indiana into 1 TZ .
I would guess that people in SW Indiana feel hoodwinked by both sides.At first the county-by-county adoption of CT was presented as a stategy to gradually have all of Indiana observe CT.When that was stopped due to the ‘Indianapolis ET wall’ people saw themselves forever divided by an hour from the bulk of the state year round.Allegiance to TZ is divided in those 5 counties and there is significant support for ET as well as CT.In my view, those who feel divided see ET as a uniter with the rest of the state, and those who look at meridan co-ordinates to be the final word want CT.They really don’t care if they are divided from the rest of the state.( ” It’s the price we must pay for CT”) In the counties that had traditionally been observing CT,there is practically ZERO support for ET,and I think CT supporters assumed more of Indiana would have that view and have been disappointed.
One very unique constant in how people in Indiana view TZ is that those traditional CT counties in NW Indiana and those in SW Indiana couldn’t care less if other counties observe CT as long as they are permitted to. That’s probably also valid for ET in those counties that unoffically observed ET for 30 yrs to conform to Louisville and Cincinnati.
I would like to see someone who favors statewide CT lay out a rational scenario whereby all of Indiana would be assigned CT by DOT.
There is NO scenario that doesn’t have a minority TZ within the state,if the assignment is fair, that is.Once there is a minority TZ preference established then there’s’ going to be open debate on which counties are, or are not, included.This is DOT’s MO.
Lou,
Living in the the SW region I will say you are completely wrong that most residents or Central time supporters saw the county by county approach as a way to gradually have all of Indiana observe Central time.
At the local hearings and at the DOT Jasper hearing I never heard this mentioned and if anything few cared what time zone Indianapolis was going to observe but first and most importantly the counties wanted to be united in one time zone together and second maintain regional connections to Eville and the original Central time counites.
In fact this reminds me of the article in the local paper from a reporter covering the meeting when she overheard two little old ladies say “Indianpolis doesn’t care one hoot about this part of the state so who cares what time zone they observe”
Local commissioners and several other expressed the same kinds of thoughts at the DOT hearing.
It was only after the repetition came about that the Chamber and Eastern time supporters adopted the unify more of the state in one time zone arguement.
Phillip wrote:
Living in the the SW region I will say you are completely wrong that most residents or Central time supporters saw the county by county approach as a way to gradually have all of Indiana observe Central time
…………….
I cannot argue with someone about what people feel in your area since you live there and I don’t! But what I was referring to was in the original petitioning of counties to CT,each county petitioning was celebrated by some as a victory for CT.It was a victory of war of sorts where one side gained terrain and established a beach head. Many People DID see the county-by-county approach initially as a reasonable means to overtake the state gradually with CT. Establish a CTZ here and there and then build on it. I think it’s reasonable to assume that was one way of thinking in SW Indiana.But when this process was thrwarted ,mainly I think by not being to get past the Indianapolis ETZ mandate,it was deemed not feasible by most. This is my interpretaion at least.