My “Hot, Hot Heat” post, a one paragraph throw away about the heat and general grumbling about how DST means it stays hot an extra hour later, has generated 77 comments to date. So, obviously there was some desire to discuss Daylight Saving Time and the time zone issues. So, I thought I’d open up another thread so folks don’t have to scroll down 77 comments to get to the latest.
I’ll kick it off with a quote that Jim attributes to the inimitable Tom Heller:
“[T]he sun controls my body, but the clock controls my life.†The daily activities of life are governed by the clock we observe. But if the sun and that clock are out-of-sync, then I gotta believe there are costs incurred. Maybe not visible or obvious, but that doesn’t mean they’re not there. I think I may have suggested that excessive eating (carbohydrates in particular) may be related to sleep-deprivation or getting our bodies up and off to work or school before they’ve got a shot of daylight. Certainly, there are studies that link carbohydrate loading to depression. And if Dr. David Avery’s research is solid, there may be a link between Indiana’s unnaturally’advanced’ clock and a tendency to obesity among the state’s residents.
DST is causing obesity? What nonsense. Hoosiers were big long before DST. Plus, in theory, they’ve got an extra hour to work in outdoor exercise in the evening thanks to DST.
It boggles my mind that DST is still an issue for people.
I voted for Daniels. I heard him say “The entire state needs to be on DST, the entire state on one time zone. I think Central would be best, but we’ll see.”
I HATE the very idea of DST, but I agreed that Indiana should go along with it so that it would smooth business relations with Indiana. Some disagree the business case of lost meetings and calls, but I saw it myself. I voted on that basis.
What I got was DST, but still on two time zones, with NO pettioning by Daniels for the state to be decided as a whole on time zone. Also, during this process I learned from this site and my own double-checking how Indiana used to be on Central, and the EST was a way to be on DST already! We just chose to do it 12 months a year so we could have more nighttime light during the winter as well.
So now we have later sunsets here than most places on earth, other than China or other places where the time zones are moved even more out of line than we have been.
DST should be removed nationaly, but as much as I hate it I do not think we should get rid of it in Indiana. At least people in Chicago know that I’m ALWAYS 1 hour ahead of them and New York knows that I’m ALWAYS on the same time. It seemed that most people only thought of DST on the day they changed their clocks and couldn’t remember what it ment for “Indiana Time” unless they lived here. Going back “Indiana Time” would be a mistake, however I can agree that it would have been better to leave it alone if we knew what a mess this would be.
Now that we are here, though, I feel the two things that can be done are to move the Central line to the eastern Indiana border and work to remove DST nationaly. That is my opinion, but it seems I don’t have many options to get my opinion heard other than to post on this blog. I have not been given a voice on the matter, and you can see how the vote I made that was somewhat influced by my feelings on time has already been botched.
Those such as you that have a hard time understanding why people have an issue with DST need to understand that this is NOT about changing the time on our microwave twice a year or just resistance to change. I’m sure that is the reasoning for some, but most here who oppose it have very valid points that go beyond resistance to change. Hang out and listen to them.
Perhaps Joe is unaware of Sesonal Affective Disorder. Dr. David Avery is a native of Gary. He specializes in winter depression for the University of Washington. Here is a link to an interview he had with a Seattle newspaper.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/lifestyle/204502_darkdays.html
Joe needs to be reminded that most of us have been observing Central Daylight Time the year round since 1961.
Plus, in theory, they’ve got an extra hour to work in outdoor exercise in the evening thanks to DST.
In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.
My suspicion is that DST only marginally contributes to obesity; there are plenty of other factors, I am positive. The larger point is valid – there are consequences to a gap between what the clock says and what the sun says if you areliving your life by the clock while your body tries to synchronize its workings to the sun.
What you want, is the Central time zone. Get your county commissioners to get to work moving you there and you will be happy. HappiER. Less unhappy.
Phillip- Thanks for the reply. I am not surprised that your relatives have the outlook they do. There has been little penality for EDT because the sunrises have been before 7 am. This is about to change. A week from now, Aug.14th, the sun will rise at 7am for Bloomfield. It will not rise this early again until April 23. This is a 8 month period that also comprises most of the school year. The people in Sullivan and Greene counties will have 5 months, Oct, Nov, Dec, Jan, and Mar in which the sun rises after 8. You folks in Daviess and Martin counties will never have one later than 7:15. This is a big change from last year when you were on EST. I think everyone will enjoy the extra hour of sunlight. Indiana’s gray winter days are depressing enough without having to drive to work in the dark. The drive should be safer because of the better visibility and the road crews will have had an extra hour of daylight to clear the roads.
On the subject of a referendum:
A non-binding referendum would have been nice before the decision to go on DST. You could not have a binding referendum because it could lead to checkerboarding. For example if Allen said CDT and Kosciuszko said EDT and Whitely said EST, on might end up with a drive across Indiana changing time 5 times. The Feds would never allow this. But a non-binding referendum that solicited opinion on CDT, EDT AND EST year ’round would provide valuable data if the vote still went for DST, it would have given DOC some idea as to where the time line should go.
As for understanding year ’round EST. Indiana was not alone. Case in point: If one drives the original route of the Pan American Highway (Winnipeg to Buenos Aires per the Bulletin of the Pan American Union August 1928), when do you change your clocks? In the winter it is at the Costa Rica/Panama border, but in the summer it is after you shipped your car to Colombia, walked and swam through the Darien Gap, maybe fought a drug lord, picked up your car and drove through Colombia, Ecuador and Peru (not Indiana, although they were on the same time year ’round) and crossed into Chile which is on AST/ADT (GMT-4/-3). About 8000 miles without a time change! The point is Panama, Colombia, Ecuador, and Peru (the country) are still on perpetual EST (GMT-5). If third world countries can deal with it why can’t these supposedly brilliant businessmen?
While I agree DST is silly, Gary, that isn’t a good example. Panama, Colombia, Ecuador, and Peru are completely contained within the tropics.
The sun rises and sets within a few minutes of 6:00 year-round there. DST would be beyond dumb. Same goes for Hawaii.
Alaska has such extremes that DST is little help. With the artic circle in the northern 1/3 of the their state, they must resign to nature and just deal with nearly 24 hours of sunlight or darkness.
If only we could learn the same lesson and deal with the varying amounts of daylight that the seasons give us in Indiana. It might not be 6:00 sunrises and sunsets, but it sure isn’t 22 hours of darkness in winter (even if it feels that way sometimes).
Jason: The points you make are good and valid, but the angle I was aiming at was more to show that while places like Costa Rica and Nicaragua were on DST, Panama, Peru, Colombia and Ecuador were on standard time all year. This did not seem to confuse anyone down there. However, in Indiana, the Chamber of Commerce kept whining about “no one knows what time it is in Indiana”. That argument is too weak in my eyes as a reason to force Indiana off a system that seemed to work well for nearly 40 years. I think America has put enough resources into education that the vast majority of us could figure it out with ease.
Getting back to the interesting points you made. It would be difficult to determine what would be DST season for countries splitting the Equator. Direct sunlight would be at the equinoxs rather than the solistice. As for the polar regions I have a theory on Alaska and Arctic Canada, and that is they go on DST only to be more in sync with the rest of the country. You may know more about that, or have another theory with potential
Gary – Jason- your knowledge is amazing. It proves the more you know the more likely you favor central. Gary – is the year 1928 right or was it a typo?
Jason identified the problem we have being heard. The facts and arguments are on our side but the media is reluctant to give us a hearing. The only arguments the eastern camp have are about relationships with our neighbors and the late sunsets.
None of the assertions the Chamber of Commerce made have been proven in practice. The question is – how do we hold them accountable? The issue is being suppressed. I think both parties just want it to go away. I keep bringing up a referendum because I can’t think of any other way we can win. If anyone has some other ideas please put them out on the table for discussion. We are running out of time. We must find a way to make this an issue in this fall’s election. I hate for EDT to be accepted here as it has been in Michigan and Louisville because as Tom said costs are incurred. Maybe not visible or obvious but that doesn’t mean they’re not there. Our task is to identify these costs and make them visible and obvious to everybody.
Jim-
While the Republicans want the issue to go away I can’t believe the Democrats do. They could simply be waiting for the DST issue to fully ripen this fall. You can’t expect people to notice October morning darkness in August, better to talk about it in October.
I hope you are right Paul. The Democrats may well be setting up the ambush now but I have seen no evidence that they are.
The sooner we start to sway public opinion the more likely such an ambush will occur and be successful.
The costs we inccur because of EDT may appear as minor annoyances or mere inconveniences but when added on to the obvious costs our case for central time is much stronger than the one for EDT.
Some examples of the costs. Many people prefer to take their walk in the cool of the morning than in the heat of the evening. It also affords them perhaps the only solitude they will have to plan and sort out their day.
For you that don’t know, Paul is an astronomer and the late sunsets interferes with his hobby and his sons may not be able enjoy it with him especially on school nights. This past weekend a friend complained that the Brickyard 400 was starting an hour later (at 2:30) than last year. I pointed out that it was starting the same time as last year the only difference being we had moved our clocks up a hour. I don’t know if he understood me or not.
All of us pay the price for EDT every day. Some of these costs are strictly personal but many are universally paid by all. The more we expose these hidden costs to the public the stronger our case becomes. Remember, the wheel that makes the most noise gets the grease.
I’ve also seen reports of high school football camps being moved to “later” in the day to beat the heat. I can easily imagine a few more cases of heat exhaustion among athletes and marching band members in early season H.S. football games unless game times are delayed.
I suppose that, in the end, if we just put all our activities off for an hour during DST, we can achieve a sort of backdoor, year-round EST. (I actually had one DST supporter seriously suggest to me doing exactly that!)
Jim,I`m SO SO tired of the Eastern time crowd and Chamber of Commerce saying if the state were on Central time businesses will be hurt that`s the dumbest argument I`ve ever heard!I have not heard of one business in southwest Indiana being hurt or closing because they are now on Central time which they`ve technically operated on for almost 7 months a year for over thirty years anyway.In fact Kimball International in Jasper who keeps saying they need to be on Eastern time has posted their best earnings in five years in their last two periods on Central time.Is being on Central time the reason they have had such sucsess? NO but it proves what I`ve said all along if you have a business that can`t do business in all time zones your in trouble and it makes no difference what time zone your in.I respect peoples opinions who want Eastern time but I get tired of them hiding it in a economic argument.I do not understand why the democrats are not using DST against the republicans such as my REP Dave Crooks referedum argument.He is in a targeted race this year against RON Arnold.I am a registered democrat but always vote for the person and their positions rather than party.I do agree with REP Crooks though on many positions and hope he wins.Right or wrong I have very little use for the national democrats largely because of their immigration position and other things.Look at their leaders Pelosi, Reid no thanks!!
First of all, I have been living in Peru, South America for two months now. I am down here doing mission work, and let me tell you something, it was horrible getting used to it being dark at 6:30 every night. I missed the late sunsets like no other. When I left for Peru, the sun set at 9:12 at home. And as it was said, the sunrises and sunsets here do not change much at all throughout the year, but one comment that was said is completely irrelevant to the argument with Indiana. As far as countries making it with some on DST and others not, the business world is completely different here. The interaction from city to city in these countries is minimal, let alone from country to country. In the United States however, there is much more business interaction, and it would be much more confusing to have 46 of the 48 contiguous states on DST and the other two not. My family is completely business oriented; I witnesses the confusion first hand, especially with a home office in Lansing. DST was a must for Indiana. As for the time zone, either way, we are going to be the extreme, that is what living on the edge does. We are either going to have the extreme of morning darkness in the winter with the other places on the western edges of the time zone, or we are going to have the extreme of evening darkness in the winter like those on the eastern edges. It is just a fact that we are going to have to deal with because DST is not going anywhere for awhile. Atleast not for a couple more years.
Josh – Please let me repeat. Acceptance of DST has never been an Indiana problem. In the 1930s many counties in the state were among the very first in the nation to observe DST. The problem is we gave the DST crowd an inch and they took a mile and forced year round DST on us. Now they have grabbed the extra mile and imposed double daylight time on most of the state. If Indiana was to return to the central time zone, DST would be accepted by a very large majority. Notice all the advocates are for DST but none mention Eastern Daylight Time. There were many requests for Daylight Savings Time in the Docket but I don’t remember a single specific request for Eastern Daylight Time. I fail to understand the importance for Indiana to observe the same time as Lansing but unimportant for us to be different than our fellow Hoosiers in Evansville and Gary.
If late sunsets are your preference, I suggest you choose the land of the midnight sun, Alaska, for your next mission.
As for the time zone, either way, we are going to be the extreme, that is what living on the edge does
No, one way we are the extreme, the other we will be on the edge. Ohio is on the western EDGE of the Eastern Time Zone. We are on the Eastern edge of the Central Time Zone.
Yes, because of where we live, we won’t have our clocks set for 12:00 noon regardless. However, one way (Eastern) sets Indiana COMPLETELY in the wrong geographic time zone. There is no part of Indiana that falls in Eastern time by nature.
For that reason I can understand a bit more when Kentucky divides to two time zones. Why should we?
Phillip – I noticed the Kimball article in the Star’s Business Section and though the same as you. I think Kimball has been more adamant for EDT than any business in the region. They have threatened to take their ball and go elsewhere maybe to Mexico (none of Mexico is in the Eastern zone incidentally).
To suggest one time zone is economically superior to another is nonsense. Statistics show that relative to the nation Indiana fared much better during the 1950s when the whole state was in the central zone than now. Bill Starr’s blog quoted some statistics that Indiana’s average income was 106% of the national average in the 50s and now it is only 91% of the national average.
Sudden thought. Has anyone heard from braingirl recently? I hope she is ok.
Get with it people. This comment is the 97th (77+20). Having over 100 comments on a state issue in less than 2 weeks would give Doug some bragging rights within the blog world especially considering the host was in the midst of moving at the time.
Let me open the door for Jason. What is David Crooks’ current position? I heard he is part of the group seeking to return the 5 counties that were transferred to the eastern zone. If this is true, it is very disappointing but not entirely inconsistent on his part. He has never taken a position on zones. As I understand his previous position he thought the zone issue should be resolved by means of a referendum before addressing daylight shifting time. I still think his was the politically “safe†position. His opponent is part of the Indiana Chamber of Commerce faction having been the president of the Daviess County chapter and will have to defend the awkward circumstances that DST has put the district in.
We are entering the “bad†period for the EDT advocates. If their petition can be stalled until October it should lose some of its steam when the people realize 8am sunrises are not worth changing zones for. Somehow, the public must be made aware of this fact
Jim,I spoke to Dave Crooks a few months ago about his position on the time zone and he stated he still believes Central is best as does The Washington Times Hearld the local paper from his home city of Washington.He said he hears from people all the time about the time issue with most saying either time zone is alright as long as the state is all on the same time you know the drill.He also said he believed the only way to resolve the issue is with a referendum vote and see what the majority of hoosiers want so the state can reccomend one time zone for the whole state except for the counties around Cincinatti and Louisville.That was his position a few months ago when I told him I had heard he switched his position to EDT.He was supposed be at the Loogootee pool last night for a meet and greet with voters but it was rained out, canceled because of severe storms.Anyway I am hoping he defeats Mr.Arnold we do not need another lap dog for the governor who is not very popular around here with democrats or republicans!
Jim: You bring up some good points here. In comment 17/94 above. Lansing has about 281,000 in Ingham, plus another 170K in the other two counties in its metro area. Lake County Indiana has 487,000 alone plus another 150K in Porter and 110K in La Porte. It is much more important to be with NW Indiana than Lansing. Even if we ignore the 10 Million in the rest of Chiwaukee.
Comment 19 (96) I agree there is no advantage except in rare cases of one time zone over another. Individual businesses maybe but the collective whole, no. With the Eastern Time Zone constantly emptying into the other four, lately the big percentage growth is in the Mountain Zone, I still don’t see any advantage as big companies deal in all zones. It is more important not to be too many hours apart from the bulk of your markets. Kimball may have selfish interests. BP is probably too global to worry about it.
22+77 = 99, why not try for 100.
As I recall David Crooks was solidly anti-EDT, but very hesitant, if not openly opposed, to moving “a few counties” to CT in response to (the late dawning of) DST in the Eastern Zone. He all along favored an attempt to move most of the state to CT. I disagreed with his view, feeling that we needed a little more of a critical CTZ mass before we could win an attempt to move most of the state. I suspect our diffence in outlook reflects differing views of the battle from those in the southern part of the state compared to those of us in the north. The South seems far more concerned with state wide unity than the north. The unity card is worth nothing in Lake and Porter counties unless it is unity on their terms, i.e. Central. Even in St. Joseph and Elkhart counties, where a lot of people seemed concerned about staying in sync with each other, almost no one was talking about Indianapolis.
As an aside, is it just me, but is the choice of time zone an issue only in those parts of the state that are, or were until this year, Eastern? I see almost no one in the parts of the state that have been on CT for the last 30 years yelling for “extra evening daylight” and the opportunity it would provide to go out for “late” ice cream.
Paul,most of the complaints here in southwest Indiana from people unhappy with the time zone situation are people who live in one time zone and work in another they hide their complaints in economic well being for businesses and we need more afternoon daylight after work arguments but it`s really home and work schedule what it is about!I worked in Eville for a few years and was a hour off from end of October to first week of April and didn`t think it was that big a deal.I got to sleep later in the morning but got home later.The main noise comes from the Crane base workers NOT FROM MARTIN COUNTY.There are appx 600 Crane workers from Martin and appx another 500-600 from Daviess and Dubois also in the Central time zone.Around 3000 emloyees from Crane are from the Eastern time counties of Greene,Sullivan Lawrence and Monroe.Now I can see why they are unhappy but what makes me mad is they try to hide their time zone arguments in Crane will be hurt on Central time when the base commander already said it makes no difference what time zone the base is in.I saw some Crane workers from Greene county on tv last year complaining about how this messed up their child care and home schedules and how Martin county needed to switch to Eastern to accomodate them even if the other counties did not.These are very arrogant people they didn`t seem to care that if Martin county switched to Eastern and the other counties did not especially Dubois where we have the most people commuting out of county to work and our own county residents would be hurt by this did not seem to matter to these people.
Phillip-
I’ve noticed the pattern you speak of showing up over and over again on the DOT docket (including a recent small spurt of alleged Dubois county folk complaining about the time line messing up their work schedule in Orange County). Even a quick glance at the commuting statistics for Dubois County shows that the three leading destinations for outbound commuters from Dubois are Spencer, Gibson and Vanderburgh (in that order/all CTZ counties) and the three leading sources of inbound labor are Pike, Spencer and Perry (again all CTZ and only Pike is joining in the request to return to Eastern). Orange County hardly shows up (it ranks fifth in terms of inbound workers, sixth in terms of outbound workers).
What I also notice in many of these “complaints” is a request to put the whole state onto Eastern, often expressed in the form “we should all be on the same time as the capital” or, when coming from county commissioners, it will be expressed in terms of “getting a bandwagon going”. In effect, these people are suggesting that Vanderburgh will end up moving with them to Eastern. The significance of these statements though is that these people are admitting the importance of Vanderburgh County/Evansville to your region. A few of the commissioners have even openly called for Vanderburgh to be forced to move to Eastern, ignoring the inconvenient fact that the legislature tried to do just that in 1985 and lost. The ties to Vanderburgh should carry substantial weight in the southern trio of counties, that is Dubois, Perry and Pike. Spencer and Perry counties will also have some retarding effect on Dubois. Stop Dubois and the whole party is over because Knox, Daviess and Martin will not move without Dubois.
Phillip – Thanks for the info on David Crooks. I hope he hasn’t changed position because of the reaction to the transfer. We were talking about costs. I understand Rep. Crooks owns an AM and a FM station in Washington. It seems to me all the AM stations would incur a significant EDT cost during the morning commute because they have to reduce power during the darkness hours. I don’t understand why there is not a loud outcry from the morning talking heads all over the state. There was a Terre Haute radio personality that made an impassionate plea for central at the hearing in that city.
The Docket had numerous pleas not to divide their locale because of work and daycare scheduling problems. There were even school districts separated by the ruling. Speaking of divisions, 2 miles north of Elnora at the Daviess/Greene county line is where I-69 will transition from Central time to Eastern time on the way from Mexico to Canada. Wouldn’t it be better for everyone to put such boundaries at a state line than at a county line? The biggest problem with the time zone system is where do you set the boundary lines. No one wants one in their neighborhood. A plug for my hometown. Phillip if you haven’t been to the White River Valley Antique Show held the second weekend in September you should. It’s at the Elnora Fairgrounds by SR 57 and is well worth the admission which is less than $5.00. Where else can you get a bowl of beans and some cornbread for $2.00? The show will attract over 20,000. Not bad for 3 days in a small town with less than 25,000 in the county.
Gary- Thanks for the population figures. A quick look at a map shows the population to be much larger on the Indiana side in the vicinity of the border. But it is good to have the numbers to back it up. It may be a symptom of Hoosier insecurity that we feel we must adjust to our neighbors instead of them adjusting to us.
Paul- Congratulations for being the 100th. You are right. No one from the 10 counties is requesting to be transferred from the central zone especially now with EDT. I read that a group from Evansville in the 70s petitioned for a change and the DOT quickly turned them down. Probably some Chamber types that felt left out. I think the uproar down south is a normal reaction to change. I hope DOT gives them a year to let things settle out and maybe they will come to their senses and realize they got the best end of the deal.
Did you catch the full moon last night? It was like a large, bright, perfect circle hanging over the Pyramids when we left Beef and Boards about 10:30. I would have loved to have had my camera.
Paul: I like the arguement that you make. To back you up and take it a little farther, Vanderburgh County has very little to gain by going to eastern time. To the south lies Henderson and Daviess Counties in Kentucky. With a combined population of 187,000 and growing, these two are a significant force in the Tri-State Region. They are tied by Freeway/Turnpike to Bowling Green and Nashville. There is really no good connection to Louisville (U.S. 60 is indirect and very slow). So don’t look for a change in thatv part of Kentucky to support Vanderburghs move. Having worked in a Planning Commission/Economic Development District on the Illinois side of the line, back in the 1980s (we were located less than 500 yards from Posey County, IN) Vanderburgh County was our big center. If you wanted to go to a larger place from there, Evansville, Princeton, Mt Carmel (IL) and Carmi (IL) all looked to St. Louis as the “Big” city in the area. This simply follows Reilly’s Law of Gravitation. Oh occasionally we went to Louisville or to a lesser extent, Nashville but that was simply to see something different. Simply put Evansville lives in a culture of CST/CDT. One or two of the Toyota suppliers for the Princeton Plant, I heard went to some of the nearby towns in Illinois, like Olney. This won’t support a change either.
I wish to thank everyone who has commented on DST.Everyone on this blog seems very well informed about the subject and I have learned some things I did not know.Most people have no clue what they are talking about and their arguments make no sense.When I went to the Martin county time meeting in FEB. the county council and commissioners had not even read the final 18 page ruling!!I do not mean to seem harsh with my fellow hoosiers who want Eastern time I just wish they would state their true reason for wanting Eastern which nine times out of ten is living and working in different time zones and I can understand that is a burden but when they say businesses will close or Crane will close to support their argument it makes me mad.Jim,I have never been to the White River Valley Antique show but have been to Elnora many times which seems to be a nice community.I used to go to the Daviess county fair in my younger days every year since the fair in Martin county was non-existent.
Since my last post I have driven app. 1300 miles,no doubling back,staying in one time zone and losing 45 minutes of day in the morning and losing 15 minutes of daylight in evening although I drove about 5 degrees further west than where I started. Where did I drive? If this true-life riddle is inappropriate for posting ,Im sure someone will tell me!
I have no more comment on time zones,but i’m following all the posts and looking forward to see what will develop with a possible referendum and re-petitions.
Great discussion Doug, thanks for providing the opportunity for us to discuss the time zones and other issues. Actually if the Eastern/Central boundary was moved back to the Ohio/Indiana state line, at least the folks in Union City would be an hour different all the time, instead of just part of the year. I’m sure that would help to relieve some of the confusion. Growing up in Union City I think part of the confusion stemmed from various businesses operating on EDT/EST during the summer when the time was split. At least if they were split all the time (as it appears they were prior to 1961), that they should be able to work through it. I still maintain though, that if Kentucky and Ohio remain as they are that Dearborn, Ohio, Harrison, Floyd, and Clark counties in Indiana remain Eastern to stay in sync with Metro Cincinnati and Louisville.
Lou- My guess is you went from New York City to Miami.
Jim,
Actually it was basically that: NY to Miami. I started at 75’30” W 40’45” N and ended up at 80’N and 26′ S or from Lehigh Valley, Pa to between Fort Lauderdale and Miami precisely.It would have been impossible to guess more acurately with the information I gave.It’s a great lesson on how both longitude and latitude affect sunrise and sunset. Unless you study maps ( as some of us do)) you wouldn’t know or care that Pittsburg and Miami are both 80 W. longtidue,or that we get earlier sunsets( in summer) even when going West if we also go South simultaneously.
Bethlehem Pa, has Bethlehen steel ties with Gary. Last I heard the only operating Bethlehem Steel plant is now in Gary, Ind.
The city council of Bethlehem is in the process of approving the miles of rusted out steel plants be converted into a casino/family resort of huge porportions.The main and strongest opposition is from the Moravians who founded Bethlehem in 1841 and still have a strong say in everything because of their numbers and as city leaders.But the casino referendum is expected to pass because Bethlehem needs a tax base,and a ‘yes vote’ means lower taxes, people are promised.
I know this post if off-subject,but nevertheless,it helps us respect time, see the real affect of time as we travel, Ive always from a young age been aware of changing sunrises and sunsets and all the more as an adult because I drive a great deal long distance.After every day of driving, there is a new sunrise and new sunset.
Old timers in Bethlehem say that in its glory Bethlehem Steel lit up skies all night, it never really got dark and there was constant noise and you wouldn’t dare open a window no matter how hot it was or you’d be overcome with dust. I take it at their words that this is true..The rusted out steel works runs for miles and miles at the base of South Mountain.
I wanted to point out that the demise of the steel industry affects many part of the country,and that IN and PA do have strong mutual steel history.
Unioncitynatve- These counties have been a problem for a long time. The 1957 Indiana General Assembly seeking to bring uniformity to Indiana time passed a law banning year round Central Daylight Time which was a common practice in many of the eastern counties probably to align themselves with Michigan and Ohio who at that time were not observing daylight time. These counties resented the law and promptly set about circumventing it. Governor Handley threatened legal action to bring them in line but to no avail. This law had unintended consequences and the repercussions are what we are dealing with today.
It motivated the group that in 1960 petitioned the Interstate Commerce Commission to transfer much of Indiana and the Louisville region of Kentucky. The resultant ICC ruling in 1961 that divided the state county-by-county opened Pandora’s Box. Once you start dividing a state at the county lines where do you start chopping and where do you quit. If the southeastern counties that border Ohio and Kentucky were allowed to remain eastern this would place the boundary line between them and the adjacent Indiana counties and separate them from the rest of the state. I think it is better to keep a state whole if possible and let the counties on both sides of the border realize the difference and make the necessary allowances. Taking the idea that a portion of state should be in the same zone as a neighboring state to the extreme would result in the entire nation being in one zone.
This being said until recently these border counties had a legitimate economic reason to be on the same time as Ohio and Kentucky because of the riverboat casinos. These boats had to leave the dock every so often and they schedule the departures on Ohio time because most of their customers are from either Ohio or Kentucky. This has changed since the General Assembly now allows dockside gambling. The casinos are now free to steal money 24 – 7 and it no longer matters which time your watch is set to. This is the voice of experience.
that should have been 1742, Moravians founding Bethlehem, and the Lehigh Valley is comprised of Allentown, Bethlehem and Easton, PA and lies near the PA-NJ border
The original USA standard time railroad inspired time zone map was adopted in 1883,and the map was sometimes referred to as the ‘railroad zones of time’. On that map, the states of Michigan,Ohio, Kentucky, Tennessee, Georgia and Florida were all wholly in CT. By 1902 the map has still not changed,although other time zone maps were published in the interim showing 82’30’ as the dividing line bewteen ET and CT. I assume this was to show the standard 15 degrees of separation between time zones(compared to actual practice),but I also assume maps like that encouraged the movement of the ETZ west as that split Ohio right down the middle near Cleveland.Again let’s assume people are up and functioning more after sunset than before sunrise so that would encourage a western movement of time zone,although EDT in Indiana seems to have tested that. I have been researching when the above states all ended up in the ETZ ( KY and TN split) .
Detroit as a city set its own time and at first continued to use local ( sundial) time until 1905,when the city council voted the city to CT .From 1905 to 1910,there were council time wars and in 1910, the city council voted the city to ET. In 1915 the ICC put Detroit on ET and that was approved by voters several months later.
Ohio was moved to ETZ on April 3, 1927 by ICC. I have found no information on any of the other states,or Michigan ,except for Detroit.
It’s curious that Detroit was on ET and Ohio was on CT from 1915-1927.
Ok. I take back some of what I said. Indiana being in CT is NOT as dumb as what we have elsewhere.
Take a look at this.
Look at time zones GMT -9 and -10. There are cases where you could fly due west and go from time zone -10 to -11 back to -10! And Alaska is mostly in -10, but they decided to put the entire state in -9. The western edge of Alaska is in -11. It would be like putting the western edge of Indiana on PST!
Also, look at Spain. They have a western edge that is two time zones removed from the natural time zone, same as above. So it isn’t just the USA.
For comparison with Indiana: Iceland is completely in GMT -1, and it about at far from the GMT edge as Indiana is from EST, however they remain on GMT.
And don’t even try to figure out the places like Iran, India and others in that area. Some are GMT +3.5, Nepal is GMT + 5 3/4!!!!!
So, Eastern or Central, things are not as bad as they could be!
I’m sure Doug will open another thread on this but Governor Daniels has once again entered into the time zone issue.
http://www.in.gov/gov/media/index.html
I have voted in every election since I became eligible to vote .I have voted for democrats and republicans and I can honestly say I despise this governor.He is a two faced talk outside both sides of his mouth type person.I pray a decent person runs against him so we can get rid of this man!!His handeling of this issue is a joke!His handeling of the licsense branches and closing of some pathetic!He ran on prefering Cenrtal time then backed out without reccomending it to the DOT.This man must go!!
Undoubtedly, Doug will be moving this discussion to another thread but till he does I am struck by several points. Daniels released this at his “Media Center” site along with the Joint Petition, and Exhbits. Take time to study the detail of the petition by the Indy law firm Ice Miller LLP and also look at the exhbits section. This blog has, time after time, provided clear points and raised issues of the conduct of our state officials. So the story goes like this. On November 29, 2005 Daniels writes in a letter to the DOT:
“Second, in Southwest Indiana your proposed rule would divide a multi-county region that, through your public hearing process, has expressed a clear argument and desire to be placed together on Central time. The Department proposal correctly added three counties (Perry, Knox, and Pike) to the five existing Central Time Zone counties in Southwest Indiana. However, to fully preserve the unity of this region it is essential that you grant the petitions of the three remaining counties in this corner of the state (Daviess, Dubois, and Martin).”
Now, on August 14, 2006, it’s a different story. Lie, lie, lie again, and maybe if you say it enough somehow it will become true.
Jim,thanks for providing the link to this information.I have already passed it along to others who support Central time and to Tim Joyce in Knox county who has a small movement over there for Central time.He stated a while ago the Chamber of Commerce in Knox county wasn`t supporting the petition.A few months ago at a Martin county council meeting county attorney lett stated the petition wouldn`t be ready until October this was obviously sped up to try to get this changed this Fall so they wouldn`t have to wait until Fall of 2007.I love the last part of your post with what the governor said in his letter last year he`s so full of crap it`s almost funny if it wen`t so pathetic.I told all of you none of these county attorneys would be smart enough to write new petitions!
Lou- I have been puzzled by Michigan and Ohio time history. In 1887 the U.S. entered into an international agreement that established the 24 zone system with Greenwich, England being the prime meridian. Congress realizing this was potentially a very hot potato delegated authority at that time to the ICC to oversee the zones. The centers of the 4 zones in the lower 48 are prescribed by law to be at 75 deg(eastern-Philadelphia) – 90 deg(central-St. Louis) – 105 deg( mountain-Denver) – 120deg ( pacific-Sacramento ). Where to set the boundary line between the zones has always been the problem. The eastern/central boundary if set at 82.5 would divide many states. Rather than upset a lot of people the feds let the zones set by the railroads ride. I do know the Ohio General Assembly in 1893 voted for the state to be in the central zone.
Michigan has been the only state that has gave the people some say in the matter by the Detroit vote in 1915 and a number of times in the late 60s on DST.
What I have found but can’t verify is Michigan and Ohio were transferred to the eastern zone in 1918 by act of the U.S. Congress. Many things happen in 1918. The nation was placed on DST for the war effort and the law governing time zones was enacted. When the nation reverted to standard time after the war these states may have wanted to stay on advanced time. Henry Ford thought late sunsets were good for business because people could do more joyriding ( headlights were inadequate then). So much for energy savings. The Detroit Tigers and Cleveland Indians in this era before baseball under the lights wanted late sunsets to avoid postponing games due to darkness. Also eastern time would place all of Lake Erie’s ports in the same zone.
In 1935, Georgia was placed into the eastern zone. The boundaries in Florida, Kentucky, and Tennessee may have been established at this time because it would have made sense to make the boundary very close to a straight line.
What is maddening for me is these transfers made sense to have states united into one zone when possible but it makes absolutely no sense to have reversed the process in 1961 and divided Indiana a single zone state. Then the problem becomes where you place the boundary line in Indiana. It is far better to set a boundary at the state line than between counties.
Some of you may not realize it but there are 2 Jims making comments. Henceforth I shall be known as Jim B. to keep from confusing myself.
Jim
Do you know where one can find that letter of November 29th that you quote? I couldn’t find it in the DOT document section. Daniels like he said in his scripted December town hall meeting has been consistent on the time zone issue. Consistently lying,duplicitous, and deceitful. If someone could get all his contradicting lying statements and documents together that he and his cronies in the House,Senate,and the Chamber of Commerce have spun and present a nice package to the right media outlets it cuold make a good case for regime change this November and beyond.
Chuck Central-
The Governor’s 29 November letter is on the DOT docket management system, but in an unusual location, buried with hundreds of other items in a collection titled “Submissions Made to DOT Outside of the Docket Management System . . .”. It is in Document NO. 5332 at page 4. Careful though, the file includes 678 pages and is massive.
I posted a response in the wrong topic, but the November 29, 2005 letter is also available on the State’s website here.
I am pleased to see so much information on the daylight savings time issue and the impact to Indiana. Recent posts by the Governor to now have the entire state on Eastern time I am guessing are based on statistics skewed due to the recent time changes (e.g if we were on Central time instead of Eastern time in the majority of the state, the statistics of the broadcasts, media, and shipment of goods would not be in the Central time zone).
I would personally vote for a governor that will change the time zone to Central – I would not have to hear any other positions. The retail and restaurant businesses have been severely impacted by the change – people just are not going out like they used to do (many restaurants showing a 20% decline in revenue over the summer), and more groceries are being purchased. That translates to lower sales tax revenue going to the state. I would like to see all of the ecomonic statisitics showing how Indiana produced over the summer economically.
Schools are reporting lower performance by students – not enough sleep due to late bedtimes – it is hard for anyone to go to bed when the sun is up.
Did anyone notice the time for sunrise today (Aug 15, 2006)? It will only get worse to now wake the kids up for school – we thought the winter was tough – it will just be tough all year.
I am on a mission to track blogs, and see more direct action politically. I would like to see a simple poll on how many in the Eastern time zones in Indiana would prefer Central – from my own independent conversations from those in all walks of life (e.g. parents, business people, elderly, golfers), I can confidently say 75% want Central time.
I would like to see how many would vote for a governor promising to change to Central time – that individual has my vote – and the sad thing is that I agree with many of the steps taken by Daniels, but the time issue impacts too much of our lives – more than many will admit.
Colleen-
Welcome to time zone central (double entendre intended!).
I think it’s funny that in today’s 24/7 international business environment anyone could be naive enough to think that the presence–or absence– of Daylight Time could really have much effect upon a company’s bottom line. I recently completed a major sale to a customer in Ireland, totally via email, and he could have cared less if I was in the Central, Eastern, or Atlantic time zone. When I deal with customers in Australia I am usually sleeping when they are emailing me regardless of the time zone I am in.
Actually, the main reason Eastern Daylight Time (which is in reality Atlantic time) makes no sense for Indiana is that geographically, Indiana clearly lies in the Central time zone. In effect, most of Indiana is now on Atlantic time from April-October, where geographically it lies in the Central zone, thus resulting in a 2 hour shift. Thus, 10 pm sunsets in June, and pitch black at 8 am in October.
Reference to # 41
Actually, under the original time zone scheme, Ohio was divided. The side near Pennsylvania and West Virginia was Easter, and the side near Indiana was Central. The dividing line was roughly through Columbus and Mansfield.
Ohio became all Eastern in the 1920s. Indiana became mostly Eastern as a result of the lawsuit by the broadcasting industry in the late 1960s. Indiana is so on the very very extreme edge of the Eastern zone that Daylight Saving results in bizarely late sunsets and late sunrises. Just wait until late October!