According to this AP story, the Dubois County commissioners have voted to petition the USDOT for a switch from Central to Eastern time. It was a 2 to 1 vote. Commissioner John Burger apparently voted for Central last September but has switched his stance to Eastern after various interests, including business interests, who were silent in September started complaining after the county was switched to Central.
Dubois was one of those counties whose petition to switch to central was initially denied. At that time, a Dubois County commissioner had said “they were done with the topic,
meaning the county will not try to supplement its petition to get
Central Time.” However, Dubois County changed its mind in November and decided to supplement its petition and resume its efforts to switch to Central time despite the preliminary denial.
The AP story out today stated “Martin, Daviess and Knox counties also will ask federal officials to return their counties to Eastern time.” I knew Knox County was considering a request but had not heard that the Knox County commissioners had made a definitive decision as the AP story suggests. According to this WTHI-TV article Martin and Daviess counties had previously voted to request a switch back.
After several days on the road in the Central Time Zone, I ended up inElizabethtown KY. The next morning I awoke at 6:26 and it was almost totally dark, cloudy and cold. It looked like the end of January. My feelings are what will 2007 be like when we go to daylight time in March? Do these petitioners have any idea what they are doing? Like you say Doug, most were happy with the old EST year round system. Their petition if successful will (Starting in 2007) get them 8 months of Atlantic Standard Time (which is what EDT really is). So the sun will be overhead in Nova Scotia at noon, not Vincennes, Indiana. This also means light in the sky until almost 11pm in summer. Fireworks shows can start shortly after 10:30 pm. Many will try to sleep before it is dark in the 52 day period when the sun makes the top bend of the figure eight (this appears on many world globes), and awake to a dark morning in spring, fall and winter. They all say “we get more light on eastern time” but really you just shift it. If you have 9:54 between sunrise and sunset, you get the same regrdless of what time zone you choose. Want a longer day? Travel south in the winter, north in the summer. The petitioners also noted they had Toyota workers sign. Are they nuts? Toyota is south of Princeton, in traditional Centrsl time country. Gibson county will not change because Evansville will not, because Henderson and Owensboro, KY will stay on CST/CDT. Pike county relates to Owensboro. So Toyota workers in EDT country will have to get used to a twice daily time change going to and from work.
OOP, a little correction. Not PIKE but PERRY county relates to Owensboro, KY. This is probably why they are satisifed as Lou noted in a comment on the Knox county entry.
People seem to think in terms of commuting areas rather than being advocates of a time zone in general,which is important but secondary. That was the insight Benton County taught us. Logically, not one single person there along the Illinois border should have objected to CT, yet many not only did,they let their feelings be known through the USDOT docket commentary.As noted just above, Gibson county has been longtime in Evansville commuting area and will always be CT with Evansville,but Pike County may have stronger ties to those counties on ET,and to those who may be re-petitioning to return to ET. It’s not clear yet.. . a regression to a past big issue…… That’s a reason perhaps La Porte County is pulled between ET and CT. Having lived in Chicago, I would safely say Chicagoans dont consider Michigan City or La porte part of their suburban area,which is not to say these areas dont see themselves tied to Chicago. But also people in La Porte county dont actually commute in any daily pattern, like they do for example from Chesterton area and west,where there is significant daily commuting to Chicago. I think the re-petitioning may have to do with people realizing primary ties and secondary ties with surrounding areas.But it all seems very subjective and beyond any rule of reason.Knox,Daviess and Martin counties have divided sentiment(otherwise they wouldnt have petitioned for CT in first place),but reality of time is beginning to take shape.Do people feel divided or unified by the time they keep? This is the issue much more than how dark it is or isnt in the morning,and thats not to say people dont hate dark mornings when they get up!
But cant we just imagine counties going back to USDOT to REFUTE all the arguments they made for CT, and now make compelling ones for return to ET?
If USDOT is wise beyond its governmental status,they will advise these counties to wait a while for time sentiment to become clear.The best argument for these counties would be to try CT and document why it was a wrong decision. At this point they can’t do that.
The fact that most of Indiana was successfully on perpetual EST for 30 yrs is no longer pertinent to solving the time issues of today,since returning to that arrangement is not an option,and neither is how much Gov. Daniels misrepresentation or misunderstanding of the time issue is the cause of the current ‘mess’ ( except the price voters may make him and/or his party pay).
The unmade point above is: has La Porte County ever considered ET to be united with Michigan and St Joseph county on ET? Much was made of the mutual ties during the past time debate,especially ties between St Joseph and La Porte County.
To Lou, commuting numbers relative to LaPorte County favor Porter County over all others by pretty large margins. Lake and Porter combined are much bigger than St. Joseph. Illinois versus Michigan is about a wash. See:
http://www.stats.indiana.edu/profiles/pr18091.html
I don’t see ET being viable for LaPorte, besides the growth is to its west, in Porter County.
I think what is significant for northwest Indiana is the asset the South Shore represents as a vehicle for attracting residents and the possibility of presenting NW and North Central Indiana as an alternative to the ring counties to the west of Chicago. The commute, on the South Shore, is no more difficult, taxes are lower and access to Lake Michigan is easier (and the Dunes beat anything Illinois has to offer in terms of a natural attraction. Porter County can be Indiana’s answer to Dupage County, Illinois. LaPorte is best off with Porter and St. Joseph being in sync on CT.
Paul,
I dont doubt what you say,since i’m familiar with that area ,too. I also dont doubt that La Porte County has more in common with Porter County than with St Joseph County,but during the argument for CT for St Joseph County the argument seemed to be that La Porte County was suffering from being on CT,whereas St Joseph County had the advantage for being on ET? Wasnt that the gist of the argument? Business would bypass La Porte County and choose South Bend.
Youre absolutely right about Indiana Dunes park. Its a fantastic place to go for recreation .
The car commute from NW Indiana to Chicago is HELL,however.Its the worst suburban commute anywhere into Chicago(maybe the Deerfield toll plaze is the 2nd worst)A big plus for all of Chicago commuting is the railroad commute…
Perry County commissioners will be watching this, I believe. We have a lot of people who commute to jobs in Dubois. At least one commissioner has been quoted as saying Perry needs to be on the same time as Dubois. Oh how I miss the simpler times before a Republican fixed all our problems…
One could infer from an article in Site Selection magazine
(http://www.siteselection.com/issues/2005/jul/p408/) that business was bypassing St. Joseph but especially LaPorte in favor of Porter. My view is that the time line, on whole, has a cost effect on doing business (although I can think of instances where it might be a plus). Consistent with this is the aversion everyone seems to having the time line run along their county’s border, particularly when it is between counties in the same state, though an out of state community of sufficient size and proximity can match the interest in state unity. Take for example the views of the most pro-ET of the Dubois County commissioners, Vollmer. The Evansville Courier-Press has reported that “Vollmer said he wishes commissioners in Vanderburgh County (i.e. Evansville) would join the move because he thinks that would create enough momentum to get all of Southwestern Indiana into the Eastern time zone.” A few months ago county commissioners in SW Indiana were hoping for a “bandwagon” which would push the time line out of their area. Alas for Jasper and Dubois County, I suspect that Evansville regards Henderson, KY as of more importance to them than Jasper due to its proximity and size.
Returning though to the LaPorte County issue, my view is that the time line between LaPorte and St. Joseph County is depressing ties between the counties, and between St. Joseph County and Chicago, and that its elimination would work would work to the benefit of LaPorte and to a lesser extent St. Joseph. St. Joseph ran into difficulty with Elkhart County though because, I suspect, Elkhart objected to the possibility of the time line coming to rest between it and Kosciusko. The procedural posture of the DOT announcing that it would move no county without its request allowed Elkhart County to stonewall the process by threatening to rupture the undoubted importance of the Elkhart/St. Joseph relationship. Thus no consideration was given as to which relationship was the more important, the LaPorte/St. Joseph connection, the Elkhart/Kosciusko connection, or possibly even the Kosciusko/Whitley relationship.
The governor, by terming “choice of time zone” a purely local matter in a state where time zones run through such densely populated areas as brought out the worst possible of inter county fights and finger pointing. Choice of time zone for many Commissioners in southwest Indiana seems to be about seeing which way the wind is blowing from moment to moment.
I don’t see Evansville wanting to go Eastern. They relate more to St. Louis than Indy. The Cardinals are their team of choice. I think they’re about as partial to the Rams as they are the Colts. Plus they always have that “No one in Indianapolis respects us” thing going on. Just my casual observation, of course. I could be wrong.
I live in Daviess County – when this issue came up the county commissioners made a half-assed attempt to do a survey. Then they voted to go to Central time. I called one of them and asked for some kind of survey with a record of the votes cast. I was told a survey had been conducted and only 3 out of 11 folks wanted to go to Eastern. If they could have a re-do I’ll bet they would like to have one. I’m also betting some of them won’t be county commisioners after the next election as folks here are upset.
Regardless of how the Dubois County commissioners did on making the decision, I think it’s important to keep in mind that they never should have been stuck with the issue. The folks in Indy should have made a decision on the time zone when they made a decision on DST.
The folks in Indy should have stuck to their first 30 odd votes over 36 years to keep the state on year round standard time.
Im struck by how much power to control or power to bring chaos one vote from a county commissioner has.If Daviess county had ORIGINALLY voted 2-1 to stay on ET, then Knox, Daviess and Martin would probably all be ET right now.It’s such a volitle situation if one commissioner changes his vote.
just a note on NW Indiana to chicago commuting that was mentioned earlier.
The South Shore Railroad is good for where it goes,but there are many up and coming suburban areas such as Merrilville,Crown Point, Valparaiso,and for these peopel railroad commute is not an easy possibility,and commuter driving is long and slow. If they drive to Gary to catch the train they might as well drive the whole way.
Chicago Metro area is spreading outward and expanding its rail lines to new counties such as Will and soon Kendall.The line are already built and setting there ,its just a matter of upgrading them for suburban trains.NW Indiana has railroads everywhere and perhaps it would be feasible to upgrade and operate some commuter service from the cities mentioned above.
La Porte County is less attractive for Chicago suburban residential development than southern Lake and Porter Counties,where there’s lots of open land because La Porte County is in the winter lake snow area,also its farther away.( just my opinion)
Indiana Dunes is a wonderful attraction and very well appointed, either for a weekender or a summer trip. Also Indiana Beach is especially nice for kids and family fun.Both are in easy reach from Chicago.
( I dont work for Indiana tourism)
Perhaps it would have been advisable for toll road privatization money to be allocated to developing rail systems in those areas instead of new road construction.
The South Shore’s management is aware of the potential to the south of its present line. The Chicago Tribune recently noted:
“studies are under way on long-sought plans to extend the South Shore from South Bend to Valparaiso and Lowell, Ind. The studies are intended to determine potential ridership levels and travel-time savings that the new service would generate.” You can read the entire story at:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/classified/automotive/columnists/chi-0604240127apr24,0,6393888.column
just one comment on ‘time lines’ Of course no one wants a time line at the county border and anyone who advocates either time strongly wants everyone else to adopt it too,by coersion if necessary.But at least let’s draw a line through a comparatively sparsely populated area where even then a school district is apt to be divided.I have driven the IN tollway countless times and I always remember the huge dairy farm with cows grazing in the fields as I come into St Joseph County from the west.Its rural there and it was rural for miles before that and is rural miles after that. The county line dividing St Joseph and Elkhart literally divides WHOLE neighborhoods of people. I think thats a very important distinction. Next time look for the cows on the La Porte/St Joseph county border.
That’s right Lou, the time line should at the least be between Lagrange and Steuben Counties, not LaPorte and St. Joseph which are not “sparsely populated”. The Toll Road, which veres to the north and lacks on and off ramps is not the major connection between LaPorte and St. Joseph. The highways that carry the bulk of the traffic between the LaPorte and St. Joseph Countes are Indiana 2 and US-20. The cumulative traffic count on these two roads exceeds 25,000 vehicles a day at the county line. See:
http://www.in.gov/dot/div/traffic/count/laporte.pdf
It is no coincidence that the purchasors of the Toll Road insisted on a non-compete clause restricting improvements to US-20.
Paul,
Yes, too bad Steuben/La Grange wasnt an option.It would have been easy. It was a confusing process and badly set up with few people of those involved understanding or participating.But still in the end the only choice allowed was west border or east border of St Joseph County.And both sets of circumstances had to looked at simultaneously and a judgment made.
The DOT has broad authority to set the conditions of time zone hearings and complete authority, absent a few places fixed by statute (e.g. El Paso, Texas) and subject only abuse of discretion, to put thhe time line any where they want. The DOT was under no obligation to announce, as they did during last year’s hearings, that they would not move any county not petitioning. Indeed this time was the first time I have ever seen where they took such a step. By contrast, during the 1985 Evansville time zone hearings, undertaken in response to a petition by the Indiana General Assembly to move Vanderburgh and surrounding counties from Central to Eastern time, they specifically considered moving adjacent counties in Illinois and Kentucky from Central to Eastern. In 1968, in response to Gov. Branigan’s petition to move the half of Indiana then in the Eastern time zone from Eastern to Central, the DOT proposed the exact opposite in its NPRM, that is to move the half of the state that was in Central to Eastern instead. In its final ruling then they gave us roughly the time line we had until this year (Pike and Starke counties excepted). In view of the broad request of the GA to DOT in 2005 to set the time line in Indiana, leaving out only the old CT and EDT counties, the DOT had ample room to act far more broadly than it did, much less take a step which had the effect of encouraging individual counties, such as Elkhart, to balk at a neighboring county’s petition under circumstances that could be based on the narrowest of local interests, or, dare I say it, partisan solidarity with a Republican governor. This meant that the broader interests of a region were never considered. It simply is not the case that moving the time line to the Lagrange had to be off the table.
I can understand that the DOT, confronted with petitions from 17 counties, wanted to simplify issues and move cautiously. But the effect was to stack the deck.
I guess I have just too much of a ‘school teacher mentality’. Here’s the choice. Choose one or the other.We’ll discuss how unfair the world is later.
Paul, I do greatly appreciate all the background information you came up with and it’s very interesting to read about Evansville and I often wondered why there was a map of Indiana in 1957 which had the time line moved as it would be later in the 60s.But then in 1959-60-61 the line was back a the OH/IN border,then moved again in the 60’s and you answered that in your analysis!I realize my mentality is limited by dealing with juveniles for 30 odd years when I read all these precisely presented legal analyses in this blog.That’s why I enjoy all the commentary so much, maybe.I hope I am tolerated in here.
Fellows, It has been decided and I don’t understand why INDOT would even consider allowing a change before giving it time. I live in Pike county and work in Gibson. I wonder if anyone knows where I could get numbers of how many people commute to central time zone area out of Pike and Dubois counties. I really think this is another example of business getting what it wants by making it harder on the consumer and tricking the consumer into believing it is in consumers interest. Some business in Dubois county don’t want to change because they don’t want
Evansville to tell them what to do. It’s really very petty. Please reply if you have any info on the communting numbers I want, thanks bunches!