I have, surprisingly it seems, managed to miss most of the George Zimmerman coverage. Some folks have asked my opinion, and mostly I have to confess that I don’t have an informed one. What I know or think I know is that George Zimmerman considered himself a self-appointed neighborhood protector. Trayvon Martin was trying to get home. Zimmerman thought he looked suspicious and called it into the police. They told him to stay put. He followed Martin anyway. We don’t know what happened after that, but Martin ended up dead at Zimmerman’s hands.
I don’t know what the Prosecution charged him with but the jury found him not guilty of those charges. Seems to me that Zimmerman was acting recklessly when he pursued Martin, and Martin’s dead because of that. If that’s a crime, I don’t know which one it is or if the Prosecution charged him with the Florida equivalent. As we saw in the O.J. Simpson acquittal and subsequent civil trial where a wrongful death judgment was entered against Simpson, the State has a much heavier burden of proof than a civil Plaintiff. Sounds like maybe the State of Florida didn’t carry its burden — go figure, Florida being incompetent. And, on top of that, juries are always unpredictable.
I assume a wrongful death civil case is probably coming. In that case, the plaintiff would have to show that Zimmerman acted unreasonably toward Martin and that unreasonable behavior caused Martin’s injury or death. Sounds like an easier case to make based on what I think I’ve learned about the case.
Thanks for the analysis. The not guilty verdict notwithstanding, I suspect that Mr. Zimmerman’s future will not be something one would want. There isn’t much more hope for him getting a life than the life he’s lived so far. Gives new meaning to the “mark of Cain”. Meanwhile, it may be that his time in court has just begun.
Speaking of court appearances, Slate published a story about a woman who testified that he sexually abused her for ten years (http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2012/07/17/george_zimmerman_molestation_accusations_relevant_testimony_in_trial.html). That should lead to additional hours in the dock. Mr. Zimmerman will know his way around the courthouse(s) by the time all of this is over.
The leftist thugs should leave Zimmerman be. He’s free again to buy all the bullets he wants, and with leftist threats against him, he has a very elevated right to be a little twitchy. They won’t even bother with a trial for the next idiot who decides to jump him.
I suppose he could spend more time in court if he wants to sue the Trayvon estate for assault and battery, but I doubt there’s much to be had, so George will likely pass on that.
Next stop for George: millions from tv, book and movie deals, and no Florida income tax to pay on any of it. He also has a lifetime of bookings on the speaking circuit and millions of fans who want his autograph.
He will have a much better life than you.
“He will have a much better life than you.”
Hope you’re right, because after he loses the civil trial and owes the Martin family millions, he will be giving all that money to them.
Again, you mistake prosecutorial incompetence for innocence.
“Hope you’re right, because after he loses the civil trial”
I just covered that. Pay attention.
No, ZImmerman will work the rest of his life for the Martin family. Use what little brain you have. And Zimmerman is not an attractive figure and will soon be forgotten. He is overweight, not telegenic and used up all the luck he could ever get getting away with zapping this kid.
Don’t go to law school, kid. You’d make a horrible attorney.
Like you should be? You enter the court room the first day and the other side would break out the champagne before the first word was said.
I think I’d feel a lot safer about picking a fight with someone if I knew I could just pull out a gun and shoot the guy as soon as I started to lose.
The same type of a situation happened in Fort Wayne a year and a half ago. I guy picks a fight, realizes he is in over his head, and then shoots the man he victimized. The wimp prosecutor would not charge him with murder.
My opinion is Zimmerman ruined his life with his decision to follow Martin with a gun. And no I don’t think he would have followed him if he did not have a gun.
Hopefully some gun nuts will see the stupidity of his actions and take note.
So I guess parents are supposed to now instruct their kids to not resist the demands of armed strangers who approach them after dark? That’s pretty messed up.
“So I guess parents are supposed to now instruct their kids to not resist the demands of armed strangers who approach them after dark?”
Either that or shoot them dead and claim self defense.
If the dead man can’t testify and you won’t and the state bears the burden of proof that it was *not* self-defense (which is how the burden works in Florida, I believe), your odds are pretty good.
“the state bears the burden of proof that it was *not* self-defense (which is how the burden works in Florida”
I too believe that is the law in Florida. Which gives me another reason to never patronize that state.
Some of the assertions and assumptions here don’t seem to be supported by the evidence and testimony given in court – you can hear the audio with the police dispatcher if you look for it – it is frequently misrepresented in commentary on the case.
Don’t use MSNBC – they aired an edited version seemingly intended to put Zimmerman in a bad light.
Which part was edited? Here is what I have, saying in part:
Told him where he could meet the police.
Had he stayed put, the kid would still be alive. Whether he acted criminally or not, I don’t know. But he clearly seems to have unnecessarily killed a kid.
If the kid had not assaulted him, this would also have been avoided.
I have not seen anything in the evidence that supports any charge against Zimmerman. What criminal act did he commit? Should he have just let himself be killed? Would that have made national news?
Except, y’know, the kid didn’t assault him. So…
Except the kid did assault him, that’s why the state couldn’t disprove self defense.
You’re not going to change these facts.
P.S. Bush got more Florida votes than Gore in 2000.
“Except the kid did assault him, that’s why the state couldn’t disprove self defense.”
You have no idea what you are talking about. None at all.
P.S. Obama schooled your CEO candidate. As in it wasn’t even close.
Not bad for a community organizer, huh?
that is very different than, “the police told him to stay put”. Since the police never said that and it takes a pretty big leap from “we don’t need you to do that” to “don’t do that”, specially when the next lines are the dispatch asking him where TM was going. The “media” misrepresented so many “facts” in this case that it became absurd.
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah.
Dispatcher: O.k. we don’t need you to do that.
Followed by “meet you at the mailboxes”.
Why did he continue to follow? It’s an important question because the confrontation never would have happened without his continuing to follow. And that’s not your standard issue hindsight because he’d received, if not a command, a strong suggestion that he not continue following and that he simply wait for the police by the neighborhood mailboxes.
and the dispatcher (who actually has no power to tell anyone where to go or what to do) keeps asking “where is he now”. Different solution of TM had just gone home instead of circling back to confront GZ.
Parker:
On this forum, it’s decide, first, manufacture facts, later.
“I just covered that. Pay attention.”
As so much of what you say here, malarky.
A lot of speculation in this post:
Only Martin knows what he was doing. People assume he was heading home. He left the store at 6:24 or 6:34PM, depending on the source. The store is .8 mi. from the complex, though I don’t know how that distance is measured. He was said to be taking a shortcut, but again, unprovable. Zimmerman calls police at either 7:09 or 7:11PM, again depending on which source you read. At a minimum, the media wants us to believe that it took Martin 35 mins. to walk just about half a mile. What is the average time to walk this distance? This is the first assumption everyone wants to make, that because no one saw him doing anything wrong, then there is 100% certainty he was doing nothing wrong, or this means he wasn’t going to do anything wrong.
Zimmerman tells the dispatcher the guy is running. Twenty-six seconds later, Zimmerman is asked if he is following the suspect. He answers truthfully and is told “We don’t need you to do that.” and he acknowledges that statement, which wasn’t a command. Zimmerman was never told, commanded, etc., to not follow. The dispatcher just made a statement, which too me sounds more like a suggestion than a command. After 1 min. and 11 sec., Zimmerman tells dispatch he doesn’t know where Martin is. The question here is where was Zimmerman located at the top of the T at this time? Was he at the far east part? Was he walking back towards the T intersection at this time?
As you correctly state, we have no idea if Martin attacked Zimmerman or Zimmerman attacked Martin. What I do know is that this case makes no getting involved, not even a 911 call to the police, justifiable. I personally believe, given what I saw during the trial, that Zimmerman is a nice guy. Every cop today was at one time a wanna-be. When you apply for the job, you are a wanna-be….does that make all cops loose cannons? I do believe that Zimmerman was just trying to do as much as he could and had no desire to confront Martin.
The government begs for people to get involved, but maybe they need to be a bit more clear? Obviously there are going to be those who just call 911 and refuse to give a name, they don’t want to get involved any further. There will be those that will call, provide a name, and even show up in court. Then there will be the Zimmermans, who will follow until the cops finally show up.
Martin’s history is relevant. If he was a bad guy, going through a phase or whatever, it is easily believable that he had the balls to confront Zimmerman. Was the confrontation as Zimmerman claims? Again, we don’t know. If Martin really did attack and beat Zimmerman, was it as bad as Zimmerman claims? On that case, given the injuries, not likely. Was it life and death? Again, no way to prove this.
Jharp,
I will just go back to say that those who carry guns for protection, think about this phrase: “Me and mine.” Carry to protect yourself and your loved ones/friends. Consider letting everyone else deal with their personal safety on their own. If someone walks into a mall and starts shooting people, maybe the goal shouldn’t be to stop the shooter with your gun and save non-related strangers, but instead just get you and yours to safety? Consider what happened to Zimmerman when one tries to do the right thing. Even just calling 911 ended up forcing numerous people to have to go to court, face scrutiny, etc.. Again, ask yourself, “Is it worth it to care about another person’s property or their safey?” before making any call to get involved in any given situation.
” Consider what happened to Zimmerman when one tries to do the right thing.”
Zimmerman clearly tried to do the wrong thing. And he paid for it with a murder trial, a likely civil lawsuit, possibly a federal prosecution for violating Martin’s civil rights, and as a bonus he and his family will be looking over their shoulders for the rest of their lives.
No thanks. I have no interest in any of those events. And you gun nuts ought to give some serious thought about whether you would like to be in Zimmerman’s shoes. He went where he never would have gone had it not been for his stupid gun and this entire tragedy would have been avoided.
Great post, Marcus, but it’s a shame you had to spend a word explaining what is obvious to all Real Americans.
These folks love government, and they don’t like independence.
I know that if someone was lurking in the bushes outside my house, I’d be darn glad to have a Zimmerman walking around with his curiosity raised.
Just don’t wear a hoody when you get the mail that was delivered by the drooling socialist mail carrier.
“I will just go back to say that those who carry guns for protection”
Make themselves less safe.
Reflexive lying, again.
President Obama.
“We should ask ourselves if we’re doing all we can to widen the circle of compassion and understanding in our own communities. We should ask ourselves if we’re doing all we can to stem the tide of gun violence that claims too many lives across this country on a daily basis,” Obama said. “We should ask ourselves, as individuals and as a society, how we can prevent future tragedies like this. As citizens, that’s a job for all of us. That’s the way to honor Trayvon Martin.”
I liked his words. I plan on doing my part. America’s gun culture is getting far too many killed. Far far too many.
If everywhere was a George Zimmerman, crime would plummet. The weak envy Zimmerman because he does what they’re too afraid to do, and he is able to preserve order without a government program.
Once, communities kept order by every man being Zimmerman. Now, the weak huddle inside their houses and pray that tax dollars bought them out of their cowardice and purchased protection.
What a feeble country we are.
Just when was that? We know, for example, that the “old west” was not really the mythological “old west”.
Stuart, I have no confidence in anything you “know.” What the Hell are you talking about, Son? How did the James’ robbery of Northfield get stopped?
Not representative. Anecdotes don’t make history.
Liberal game plan: deny facts.
O .K., little guy. Let’s start over. Tell us when that was. Give us when “every man” was a Zimmerman. Now, you can also be honest and say that you were blowing smoke relying on Glenn Beck memories.
Don’t try to be an internet tough guy, wimp. You little obstreperous, ignorant, fool.
Come on Doug, you’re usually a lot better than this. You didn’t follow the trial and don’t know what the evidence is, but you think Zimmerman is probably guilty? Seriously?
If you actually look at the evidence presented at trial – not what people said happened before trial, and not the amateur psychoanalyzing of Zimmerman that is going on now, *no reasonable jury* could convict.
There was undisputed eyewitness testimony that Martin was on top of Zimmerman, beating him. Zimmerman had injuries consistent with having been beaten as he described – black eyes, broken nose, lacerations on the back of his head. Martin had no injuries that could have come from Zimmerman, other than the gunshot. Finally, the medical examiner testified that the gunshot appeared to have been fired up while Martin was bending down over someone.
That’s not consistent with the “stalking” narrative people are trying to peddle. That is entirely consistent with a finding of self defense.
The above evidence is pretty tight. If you want to draw some inferences, there’s also support for Zimmerman’s story that he lost Martin and Martin followed him and then jumped him – specifically, when Martin made the phone call to Jeantel, he was at his stepfather’s house, but the fight and shooting occurred about 100 yards from Zimmerman’s car. This also suggests that Zimmerman was returning to his car when the incident occurs.
However, as I mentioned, this last bit is less tight than the first part, and does require some inferences, although I don’t think that they are significant.
You can, of course, imagine a scenario in which Zimmerman was the aggressor – it’s just that there’s no evidence to support that view.
No one denies that Zmmerman was getting his rear kicked. And if Zimmerman had been minding his own business on his own property, that wold be one thing. But best I can tell, he was not on his property. He was pursuing someone and escalating the situation far past his ability to handle.
That’s why the prosecutor should have pursued manslaughter.
You still need a mens rea, and Zimmerman had none, not of any sort.
For voluntary manslaughter, sure, but I didn’t get that specific, did I?
Again, you mistake prosecutorial incompetence for innocence.
Well, yeah.
I mean, if I was minding my own business, and someone attacked me unprovoked because I was black, I’d be trying to fight off my attacker too.
And if you made up your own facts, you’d be a typical liberal.
If I had a nickel for every time someone used a variation of “your better than this,” I could probably buy a reasonably priced T-shirt that says, “I’m not better than this.”
If you read my post, I don’t think you’ll find that I say I think he’s “guilty.” Guilt hinges on the specific charges, and I acknowledged, I don’t know what he was charged with. But, from what I’ve heard, I can conclude that he probably negligently or recklessly caused the death of Zimmerman.
I haven’t read through all the comments yet, but have you or someone else walked me through the non-negligent version of how he got from Point A – the police dispatcher telling him to stay put to Point B – Zimmerman on top of him kicking his ass? Because, if he stays put, I don’t think Zimmerman ever gets within striking distance.
police dispatcher never told him to stay put. keep seeing the same inaccuracies in so much of the reporting on this case.
So much for the fed case the libs are yelping about:
FBI records: agents found no evidence that Zimmerman was racist
Read more here: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/07/12/155918/more-evidence-released-in-trayvon.html#.UeM9mT7DVoY#storylink=cpy
“Come on Doug, you’re usually a lot better than this.”
Where and when? This site seems to be a reflexive adherence to anything Rachel Maddow and MSNBC might say.
You don’t come here for the hunting, do you?
Why didn’t you clairvoyants here testify at the trial? Testifying that you know Zimmerman hit Martin, or just shot him right into the heart at ten feet. That could have changed the case with your evidence. Shame on all of you here who didn’t go down and help prove the state’s case.
Again, it is time for gun owners and gun carriers to mind their own business. You see some trashy looking, likely drug addicts, clearing your liberal neighbors home out, do you really want to get involved? Just go back into your home and watch a movie or get on-line. Let the property owner deal with an issue that only affects them. Along the lines of Joe’s comment, only get involved when your own property is involved. You see a strangers life is in danger…just go back to the TV or landscaping and don’t get involved. You see a strangers property could be at risk by a shady suspicious person lurking around, again, just go back to your TV/computer/e-reader. Let the almighty government take care of crime. They are doing a spectacular job so there is no longer a need for others to say something if they see something. Maybe we can tear down all those DHS posters now? Only consider using your Glock/HK/1911/S&W for the protection of you and your loved ones only. Let strangers be responsible for the safety of their lives and property. Stop wanting to do the right thing and get involved, you may end up in the same situation as Zimmerman.
Are you on dope or what?
How about calling the police?
Do you honestly thing this turned out well for Zimmerman?
God you people are stupid.
What pissed me off about this case, as an ex-prosecutor that tried many major felony cases, is that it was the State that kept mischaracterizing the evidence. As a prosecutor, I was used the defense attorney trying to take things out of context or misrepresent the meaning of statements. It was then my job to go back and make sure the jury knew to really listen to the actual words used. In this case, it was the defense attorney that had to keep reminding the jury of what the evidence actually was and how things were actually said while the State made things up and misconstrued the facts. And then the media more than ran with the misconceptions.
Simpson never confess to those killing which he was found innocent but I do not care about OJ Simpson he is the very last person I want to wast my time on ., George Zimmerman we know killed Trayvon Martin Un arm no one cares that he could have been frighten not to mention he was in a new area visiting his father and he did not live their he was probably learning the neighborhood but GZ fixed that W E will never heal when Zimmerman is dead that when we will healed
Lot of people all ready knew he was going to get off how could they be so right so cynical but they was telling the truth . I hope the young children see know their are really monsters out their really really really and the whole entire world at large . A child/teen should be able to walk freely in america without a strange grow man perceiving them a child to be a burglar and that is the bottom line . The prosecution team should bring charges on omara what ever his name is for that blow up picture they showed to the jury any body that know about computers graphics know that was a blow up..
Damn, thus Doug guy deleted a lot of posts in the last day.
Yeah, I know. Discourse has been pretty intelligent for several years until some anonymous coward came along to troll. If he’d just ban that guy, I doubt he would have had any issues.
I mean, if this troll is not man enough to put his name, his credibility, behind what he writes, what kind of man can he be? How can he expect anyone to give his opinions any weight when he won’t sign his name?
And why should anyone spending their own money to host a website have to put up with that level of nonsense? Sure, everyone has the right (even the freedom) to say what they want, but they don’t have the right to spew nonsense on a private website. Losers like that should be IP banned to oblivion.
In other words, “It’s not fair that this smart guy gets the ‘A’ in every class. Make them grade on a curve.”
Sorry, kid. There’s no curve in the real world. If you want to run at my level, it takes a lot of work, a lot of reading, a lot of deep introspection, having an open mind, and getting lucky with the DNA.
You could accelerate your growth by making a regular habit of reading LewRockwell.com.
Asking Doug to save your arguments from review is cowardice of the first order.
You’re welcome to try to respond to whatever I write. Of course, reading what I write would be a welcome change, since you’re not responding to anything I actually wrote above.
I just pointed out that if you’re not willing to sign your name, you must not believe in what you say that strongly.
I visited your website. Every one of the links on the main page is an attributed article. Thanks again for making my point for me.
“There’s no curve in the real world.”
Huh. The entire world is curved.
The men with the highest incomes, the A+’s, don’t make 90% of the money. They simply makes the most.
Server issue – I switched server hosts and a couple of the posts got zapped in transition. I’ll get them back eventually but don’t have time to monkey with it at the moment.
Then “July 17, 2013 at 16:34 +00006” is withdrawn.
Gee goshems I wish I was as smart as “Freedom”. S/he makes life sound so pleasing and fulfilling.
“Ignorance is bliss” working all right for you, then?
For knowing everything there seems to know about everything, you seem to do an awful lot of assuming about people from only a couple of sentences at a time. You taking the time out of your busy schedule to ask your question, though, is touching and much appreciated.
Freedom, can’t you participate in a discussion without insulting people? That sort of behavior says a whole lot more about you than the ones you disparage.
Lame, Stuart. Aggressor-as-victim didn’t work for Trayvon, and it won’t work for you or your buddies who hope to take shots without fear of rebuke.
Right you are, Mr. Anonymous.
I just have to imagine your blog is so much better run than this one. I just can’t seem to find the link.
It’s fine to disagree. You are a jerk about it with everyone you disagree with, from *the guy who pays for the site* on down.
I mean, if we’re all not good enough for you, which is what you told me above and is the way you treat everyone you disagree with, leave. Unless this part of a community service agreement, I have no idea why you come here. The point of your visits is lost on me because the manner you deliver your message undermines the content of your message.
And you’re either blissfully unaware of this (in which case I’m glad I could help), or you’ve got nothing better to do than waste your time by coming here. Which, hey, more power to you, but seems like an exceedingly poor choice to me.
Like Doug says (7/15 @7:33), he doesn’t seem to “come here for the hunting”.
Joe and Stuart:
That was really some lamentable hand-wringing ad hominem.
I see you’ve lost any ability to confine your remarks to the topic.
Freedom July 17, 2013 at 16:34 +00006
Damn, thus [sic] Doug guy deleted a lot of posts in the last day.
Freedom July 20, 2013 at 20:10 +00006
‘I see you’ve lost any ability to confine your remarks to the topic.”
Only Freedom could have said it better (except for the spelling error). Oh wait, Freedom did say it. Now that is true excellence.
Considering you haven’t responded to the last few arguments I put forth above, rather rich.
Appears your MO, when you start losing an argument, is to start responding to people incredibly rudely in order to change the topic.
I think the Big Dog lets’ Freedom post so we can take batting practice. Freedom thinks he is in the game and we knock his lobs them into the stands.
It’s also a chance to get to know “Freedom”. Note that his insults are not particularly based on knowing anything about the one whom he insults but they do reflect what we have learned about the his regularly displayed characteristics, and very likely his own traits he wishes he didn’t have. His July 14 20:10 entry is instructive evidence (for you legal guys) in which he accused me of being an “internet tough guy, wimp. You little obstreperous, ignorant, fool” instead of responding to my question. Maybe there is a little of that in all of us, but he doesn’t know me well enough. But he knows himself.
I tend to think of Freedom as a character not unlike “Plankton” in Spongebob.
Ah, visual images are indelible! Like imagining your audience sitting before you in their underwear.