The superintendent of my school district has written a letter urging that parents, teachers, and taxpayers contact their representatives (in our case, that would be Rep. Truitt) to express opposition to HB 1003 concerning school vouchers.
According to our Superintendent:
If House Bill 1003 passes, it will decrease funding to traditional public schools for over 1.1 million public school students and divert those public tax dollars to help pay for about 20,000 students’ private or parochial school tuition. This type of education reform does not help all students, but rather undermines the quality of public education available for all children.
It does not take many students using vouchers to have a significant impact on one school district. For example, using the statewide funding average, if just 150 students use vouchers, that results in more than $1 million less funding for one single public school district alone. Vouchers will reduce funding available for public education.
Our legislature needs to hear from you that you believe private school tuition should not be paid for 20,000 students at the expense of one million public school students.
More generally, I’m not in favor of these “money follows the student,” per capita school funding philosophies. These are not student entitlements. The money is not for the student’s exclusive benefit. Everyone in the community – with or without children – pay to support the schools. The schools are for the benefit of the community. An educated population is a public good. Typically vouchers propose to give individual students or families authority to re-allocate funds well in excess of money they’ve actually contributed to the school funds.
The per capita funding mechanisms also ignore the fact that some students are more difficult to educate than others – some have learning disabilities, others lack interested parents, and probably a million other variables. Pretending that each student is entitled to or requires exactly the same amount of money to educate throws the system out of whack. So long as we are committed to public education for everyone, our funding mechanisms have to recognize the fact that some students require more effort than others.
I send my kids to a Christian school, and the more I’ve thought about it, the more I don’t want vouchers. More to the point, I don’t want the strings that may be attached with my school accepting vouchers.
Now, I do think it is fair for tuition to be tax-deductible, at least to a certain level. It doesn’t apply in my case (the church pays the tuition), but I’m fine with a $5,000 max tax deduction or something in that ballpark.*
I do like you correctly pointing out that vouchers are creating a new entitlement. I think I’ve noticed many people that support vouchers are normally REALLY against all of those darn entitlements.
*This is assuming we’re still playing the stupid games with deductions, I still support a flax tax, no-deduction model.
The most recent funding formula estimate based on the current proposal still includes the “complexity index” to account for the the different costs of educating students. The complexity index is based upon free and reduced lunch population as a percentage of your school population and is basically measuring poverty. There is also categorical grants that cover special education, vocational education, academic honors and a couple other areas. What has gone away is the deghoster, which counted departed students in progressively smaller portions over 3 years. What this means is IPS is going to lose 5% of the current funding in 2012 and 2013 instead of losing 2% per year over that time frame.
The charter school and voucher issue is similar in the per capita issue, but presents other issues due to the uneven playing field when it comes to student selection. Unless they get serious about mandating that these schools accept all students and enforce that acceptance, public schools in certain areas will becoming the dumping ground for the tough to educate. Technically charter schools have to educate all comers, but I know of many instances where special needs kids were counseled out our had their educational plans and needs ignored. Typically they are returned to the public school in a year farther behind than when they left and worse for the experience.
The final issue on vouchers is that at current funding levels and income limits, it is basically a give away to middle class folks that can already afford the tuition. The voucher will not allow a lower income kid to attend even the cheapest diocese run catholic school without a substantial out of pocket outlay.
Thanks Paddy. I was hoping someone who really knew what the hell was going on would come along and comment.
I don’t now much, but i do know my way around school funding.
The current proposal is by no means the final. The interesting thing I noticed, in a big picture sense, is the fact that growing schools tend to stagnate in terms of dollars/student and the group of schools suing the state will not find satisfaction. This is far from settled as Kenley is a powerful person in these areas and his schools, Hamilton SE and Noblesville, aren’t helped by this proposal.
Obviously I meant know.
Once again, easy for you to say, Mr. University Town, where everybody is white, intelligent, and social conscious.
You’d be saying something different if you had no alternative than this school.
Probably. I have my suspicions that this plan, if enacted, won’t do a lot to help Gary Roosevelt or the students there.
This is why I support charters and vouchers. While the article takes a negative slant, the truth is that choice allows the best students to get the high quality education that they deserve, without being dragged down by the lowest common denominator (or moving to West Lafayette).
BTW, an educated population is not a public good. As I have said before, education mostly benefits the individual being educated. i.e. the financial benefits of an education mostly go to the person being educated, like on the order of 95% of the gains. There is very little gain to society, and don’t start quoting this or that study that shows that criminals have low levels of educational attainment. Correlation is not causation.
I don’t care if it does “a lot” to help. I just care that those that want the chance to succeed can do so. Maybe it is only a handful of kids, so what? I think that is all the more reason to allow them to escape.
I’ve had a lot of interaction with charter school people recently (my kid is on the chess team, and he’s been playing them at local meets). I’m impressed, and I am sincerely glad that folks from shitty cities have a good school that their kids can go to, and aren’t stuck with the likes of Roosevelt.
Actually, Buzz, by the article you linked to, Education IS a public good:
If I go to public school, it does not exclude you from going to public school. I also can’t be excluded from going to public school.
Leaving out the criminal debate, you must accept that if state A had no public education and state B did, that there would be a larger pool of qualified workers in state B, and the jobs would go there.
Don’t get me wrong, I strongly feel the federal/state level of educational control is way too strong, and it should be eliminated to allow for local control. I still think we need public education, though, just controlled at the city or county level.
The proof is there in your article about Gary. If public schools are so bad there, then private schools have a great advantage. If the market would take care of everyone if we eliminated public education, why has the market not emptied the public school classrooms there?
Education is not a public good. If you go to a public school, you fill up a seat in that school. You most certainly cannot fill that seat at the same time that someone else is sitting there. Go to an overcrowded school district (I suggest you take a look at Lake Central schools) and see if you still think that education is non-rivalrous.
The classic public good is defense. The US Army provides protection. It provides that protection whether you pay for it or not, and you can’t keep the non-payers from enjoying that protection.
There are very few public goods, strictly defined.
The proof is there in your article about Gary. If public schools are so bad there, then private schools have a great advantage. If the market would take care of everyone if we eliminated public education, why has the market not emptied the public school classrooms there?
In fact, enrollment in Gary has declined significantly over the last few years, on the order of 20% or so. The students have mostly gone to charter schools. Gary Community Schools are going to lose 30% of their funding if this education bill goes through, and that money will go to the charters and certain suburban districts.
The thing I find interesting is this discussion usually boils down to a few REALLY bad schools.
I realize that this is politically impossible, but why don’t we fix theses schools and let the rest who are doing a pretty good job keep on keeping on.
By my quick calculation, we could free up ~$100M in funding by going in to the worst schools, clean up the issues and lower their $/student to the state average of $6200/kid.
“. . . schools are for the benefit of the community.”
That absurdity strikes the root of the problem.
Favor vs prefer
I don’t FAVOR school vouchers.
I PREFER school voucher over the current system.
When the choice is between greater evil and the lesser evil, I choose the lesser of the two.
” . . . public schools in certain areas will becoming the dumping ground for the tough to educate.”
Not true.
Similar accusations were made in New Zealand prior to that nation’s ambitious school choice initiative. It turns out that school competition drew few away from gov’t schools and, instead, enhanced their performance as educators faced accountability in the form of losing students and the money that followed the. [1]
“. . . public schools in certain areas will becoming the dumping ground for the tough to educate.”
Charter schools are often the “dumping ground.” But that’s not a bad thing. Consider the all-black boys school in Chicago that graduated 100% of its senior class, all of whom were accepted into four-year colleges. [2]
Advocates of gov’t schools, btw, often boast that they out-perform charter schools. Actually, they out-cheat charter schools. Student in Detroit’s gov’t schools failed but were given passing grades. [3]
[1] http://www.kiwifamilies.co.nz/Topics/Education/Education+Overview/Independent-Schools.html
[2] – http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/08/24/2010-08-24_when_segregated_schools_work_predominantly_black_charter_schools_can_spur_higher.html
[3] – http://www.freep.com/article/20110210/NEWS05/102100562/Illegal-grade-fixing-allegations-swirl-DPS?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE
Then why is it happening now in Indianapolis area charter schools?
Why are kids with IEPs going to charter schools and being counseled out?
Why are these kids returning to public schools from charters behind their educational plan after living without the required by law services charters are supposedly providing?
If you are going to purport to fix the problem, fix the problem. The proposed legislation doesn’t fix the problem.
I have a hard time believing that the proponents of vouchers have a clear idea what they want education to achieve, beyond saving themselves a few bucks. Nor do I believe that the critics of public vs. private goods in speaking of public education really address the foundation of what a public education is supposed to entail. If I’m wrong, please elucidate your views.
Public education is flawed. Public education has always been flawed, in my opinion. But, is throwing out the baby with the bathwater a real solution, or just pandering to a certain segment of the population?
Changing funding from the public sector to a number of private enterprises is likely to be just another political sleight of hand.
What happens when a private schools fails?
Can the market really fulfill the role of societal educator? This didn’t work in the first place, which is why public education came about.
Are market educators so much smarter today than they were 200 years ago? Convince me (as I’m not convinced now).
I believe vouchers are a political solution, pandering to a certain (and limited) slice of society. How successful have political attempts at ameliorating societal problems been in US history (from either side of the political aisle)? What makes anybody think that this attempt will fare any better (especially since politicians are going to keep their grubby little hands involved)?
Charter schools aren’t a bad idea, but it’s an idea that is being overly-politicized, and I don’t mean that in a nice way.
As a society we do owe it to our children and to ourselves (as a society) to have an educated citizenry. Vouchers, unfortunately, seem to have the potential for leaving more children in the lurch than even now, because the voucher train is being driven by politicians with an agenda, and by those who are paid really good money to promote alternatives to the status quo.
The bad part is that a real discussion by real adults (not pundits, politicians or the underinformed) about public education will likely never occur, and I find this to be the saddest thing of all.
I am NOT in support of VOUCHERS. I have worked extensively in public schools and charter schools all while laboring to keep my son in the private parochial school he attends. Not EVERY one but the majority of the issues in the public school are home based- lack of parental involvement, drugs, crime, kids on medications, etc. I guarantee that if any of you white collar folks visit a classroom in an urban setting (public and charter) you will be shocked. I work for a decent charter but the kids who cause the problems are the ones who ran from public school (truancy, drugs, etc) and we are short of help when it comes to their very expensive needs. They change the entire “better” educational environment and then all of the involved parents leave the once good school. I work hard to send my kid to school- make everyone else do the same. There should be no entitlement from doing nothing. Welfare has proved this.
“There should be no entitlement from doing nothing. Welfare has proved this.”
Gov’t (public) schools ARE an entitlement.
1) Anyone putting the argument that we would think differently if we were in a different school district, well, that’s not true. All the Lafayette schools are quality schools and we would feel the same way if we were any one of them. I am a strong proponent of public school education, and no matter what kind of “vouchers” I was given, my children would still be in public school.
2) As to the notion that everyone in our school district is white, you obviously have not been here. My daughter is a minority in her classroom! We have an extremely diverse community in West Lafayette. Sure, the majority are intelligent and socially conscious – that’s why we moved here.
3) Taking tax dollars away from failing schools doesn’t help failing schools, it only hurts them. This bill doesn’t fix anything. We need to focus on the schools that are failing, which I would argue is because of low funding and low parental involvement, rather than just offer to send the kids down the street to a private school that doesn’t even have to accept them.
The point is not that you would feel different if your were in another West Lafayette school, but that you would feel different if you were in a Gary school. It is all well and good to say that you are a proponent of public education when your school is good. It is another thing entirely when your schools are downright dangerous.
While it is great that your kids are exposed to the Asian and Indian offspring of professors, it doesn’t mean that you have any clue what it’s like to go to a majority African-American or Hispanic school.
Gary schools spend the most per pupil of any school district in Indiana. Exactly how much more money should they spend to be successful? More money does not equal more achievement. Many times that money is used to, say, increase pay for teachers than have a masters degree, something which has absolutely no influence on student achievement whatsoever.
Gary charter schools get a similar $/student as Gary public schools and aren’t knocking it out of the park.
I suggested up thread that the correct thing to do is actually fix the problem schools and not bother the schools that are actually doing their job.
Apparently that as lost in the maw of the cabal…
I have been in meetings with state level elected officials and have discussed how to address some of the issues like over-legislation from the state and federal level and over-bargaining from below.
When given 2-3 real steps to make difference, the politicians, mostly republicans, were not interested due to the political ramifications. They have instead charted a course to weaken schools via the revenue stream with very relief from any of the strictures.
Bad schools will probably get worse, good schools will struggle to maintain and overall, the quality of our state’s education will decline.
I truly believe that thie current problem is fixable, it will just take real leadership, real conversation and people who are willing to make it work to rise above this idiotic fray.
Okay, Buzzcut. I’m on board with vouchers, with a few caveats:
1) Only kids whose families are eligible for medicaid are eligible for vouchers
2) All private schools MUST accept any kid who wants to go there with a voucher – there will be 100% admittance, no refusals due to learning disability, behavior issues, or any other reason.
3) Private schools must accept the voucher as 100% of tuition paid, the student cannot be expected to pay extra to go there.
The problem is, Buzzcut, that the way this bill is written it won’t help one damn student in those Gary schools. How many of those kids do you think will be able to afford to make up the difference in tuition? And even if they could, do you think those schools will accept those kids? Absolutely not.
Private schools don’t want those kids. That’s why this won’t work.
I’m happy to pay more in taxes to fix these troubled schools. But I’m not willing to sacrifice my kids’ education or any other child’s education so that some middle class parent gets a credit toward tuition they can already afford.
This bill won’t fix these problems.
I would support vouchers if schools that accept the vouchers agree to provide the same level of services required of public schools (special education requirements, remedial and learning disabilities and such come to mind).
Private schools aren’t required to provide the any special education services.
If they want public money then they need to provide the same as public schools.
Otherwise public schools (be they charter or traditional) will become dumping ground for difficult to educate students.
Amy, I don’t disagree with any of your caveats. My biggest beef with public schools is that they are really not needed for most people. I agree, the middle class and above don’t need the government paying for their childrens’ education. They could pay for it themselves, and cut out the middleman. They would have more control over what their kids are being taught, and have more of a stake in their kids BEING taught, rather than being so passive as many parents now are.
And I don’t disagree with Paddy either. Schools are way over regulated by the Feds and the state. The Department of Education has been a huge negative for student achievement.
As for if people from Gary can afford private school tuition, I think that they can afford Catholic schools with the voucher, at least up until high school. My church has a school, and it’s about $4500 for the first kid in the family and goes down from there. The 4th kid is free. Even so, we send our kids to the public school. I have to get something for my 5 figure property tax bill. ;)
Ok, folks… how DO you fix a failing school system? Indianapolis Public Schools recieves $8,200 / student. That is $2,600 more than the state average per student and everytime there is a budget battle, they want to cut TEACHERS! Come on, it’s the teachers who make a difference. I cannot believe that IPS has a $293,000,000 (yes, 293 MILLION dollar) budget, yet when faced with a $15M reduction, they can’t find where to cut. I also believe Mega-districts are so overrun by waste and inefficiency that they could operate on less money and do a better job. I asked Dr. White (the IPS Super) why his school district got almost 50% more per student and they still struggled and he said “Well, no other district has a $15M Police force.” Sad, but probably true.
I admit it is no easy answer, but I have to say, if these school districts were run a little bit more like buisnesses, and were held accountable for their performance, the vouchers would be a non issue because all of us parents would gladly send our kids to the public school.
I tend to think IPS should mostly be left out of discussions of state wide education policy. It just isn’t a representative Indiana school district. Give Marion County the flexibility to address its issues as an outlier.
Jim, I don’t know where you got those figures. And for the life of me I don’t know how you got Eugene “Cufflinks” White to answer a question. He barely answers questions from the school board.
In 2008 IPS spent $14,479 per pupil, fifth highest in the state. But that figure also includes buildings and grounds, and IPS is a large, aging system.
It is also the largest transportation system in the state; serves almost 80% of its students free or reduced-priced lunches; has 15% more special education students as the Indiana average, and nearly triple the average English learners. Thirty percent of its students live in poverty. (I am continually indebted to Fran Lebowitz for pointing out that in this country if you live on a flood plain, and get flooded, it’s a natural disaster, and nearly every president rushes in nearly every time with Federal aid; but if you’re a child born into poverty you’re on your own. Go scrounge yourself a pair of bootstraps to pull yourself up by.)
Half of the “extra” money IPS receives comes from the Federal government, under Title 1, the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, and school nutrition programs. Yet Gene White tells you the difference is school cops.
I’ve got no love for the IPS administration, believe me. But it is simply not the case that it has laid off teachers first thing every time it’s faced budget cuts, aka, the Daniels Years. On the other hand, when you slash budgets across the board, without consideration for anything other than a bottom line you can run for office on, then the largest expense on the ledger–salaries–is going to climb in Procrustes’ bed with everything else.
All these years (probably from the time I was 9 or 10 and fascinated by Greek mythology), I remembered Theseus and the story of the bandit with his iron bed – stretching or cutting off legs as necessary; and, yet, never put it together that his name was Procrustes and gave his name to “procrustean.” Apparently if you give me three decades, I might catch on.
Most recent information from LSA
2011
State Regular Avg/student = 5,841
State Total Funding Avg/student = 6,258
IPS Regular Avg/student = 7,897
IPS Total Funding Avg/student = 8,284
2012 est.
State Regular Avg/student = 5,541
State Total Funding Avg/student = 6,283
IPS Regular Avg/student = 7,333
IPS Total Funding Avg/student = 8,149
2013 est.
State Regular Avg/student = 5,605
State Total Funding Avg/student = 6,283
IPS Regular Avg/student = 6,344
IPS Total Funding Avg/student = 8,023
Here is the kicker:
Complexity index, state average 2011-13 = 1.2212
Complexity index, IPS average 2011-13 = 1.5321
Special Ed funding, state average per school 2011-13 = $1,413,096.64
Special Ed funding, IPS average 2011-13 = $22,428,332.67 or $734.25/student using total population
1. In no year is the difference in funding anywhere close to $2,600/kid more.
2. IPS is poorer than the average school by a large margin as demonstrated by complexity index.
3. IPS is serving a much larger special education population than the average school by a large margin as demonstrated by Special Ed Funding.
4. Special Ed Funding is federally mandated flow through money and based upon the needs of the children identified.
If your local school needs more money/student, recruit poor and special needs kids to your district.
Finally, Doug’s point is the most salient in this renewed discussion. IPS is such an outlier that they will have to be dealt with “outside” the system eventually.
Except that big urban districts like IPS are what is held up as evidence that schools are “failing”. So they’re central to the argument, as are the particulars of their circumstances, which are routinely ignored by public school opponents.
(And all this, by the way, ignores the horrible track record on race in Indianapolis public schools, beginning when the Klan controlled local government and culminating in Dick Lugar ghettoizing inner city schools so he could harvest white votes in the suburbs. Leave us not pretend this is just a question of test scores.)
What is done to inner-city schools is visited on your district, eventually. Remember, tax breaks for the wealthy were supposed to be the tide that lifted all boats. Now their sole purpose is helping float a few yachts.