Rep. Crooks has introduced HB 1050 which requires a public question to be put on the 2008 general election ballot which asks:
If all of Indiana could be placed in one (1) time zone, which time zone would you prefer:
The Central Time Zone.
The Eastern Time Zone.
This seems like a reasonable approach. It recognizes that the decision isn’t directly in the hands of the state. However, it’s the only real way to obtain hard data about the time zone preference of Hoosiers. Most Hoosiers seem to feel like, if we must be on Daylight Saving Time, the entire state should at least be on one time zone, otherwise we should have left the system in place that we had for the past 30 years.
Politically, it would probably hurt Governor Daniels. Right on the 2008 ballot would be a reminder to voters that Governor Daniels screwed with our clocks.
[tags]HB1050-2007, DST[/tags]
Yes, but you wouldn’t vote on this until you have moved several pages from the vote for Gov.
However, the one thing I think would be GREAT would be the ads supporting one or the other. A media blitz about what time zone would certianly help bring out the vote in Indiana!
Indiana: the state where important issues like the time zone bring folks out to vote, but public safety, education, and the future of a manufacturing state in an information economy are non-starters for discussion.
I realize the time zone is popular here, and that’s fine: I just see other issues as being much more important.
At least this time Rep. Crooks is being fair with the wording of the question. What would be the point of doing this? I think he is taking a little bit of the fallout for what has happened in SW Indiana. Many people in SW Indiana are very unhappy with their time zone change. Anyway this question really serves no purpose since it could never convince the DOT that it meets any of the convience of commerence requirements to make such a move. If the question was answered for Eastern Time the DOT would never bust up the Chicagoland area at the state line. Remember in 1985? the DOT would not even consider the Evansville area moving to the Eastern Time zone.
The two big complaints on the USDOT Docket ,22114, seem to be that these 5 SW counties were always the same time as the State Capital,and most of the rest of the state and now they are always an hour behind.Also the Winter sunset is too early.These are two issues that were not mentioned much previously ,so it’s curious.It’s that so many people don’t know what the effects of a TZ will be,even though they may have been in favor .
A statewide question of TZ preference would be interesting,but it might be too late as a catylist for statewide CT, and as Richard pointed out above, referenda are not part of TZ assignment process, and ET would never even be considered in certain areas of Indiana,so it’s a false choice to begin with.
Didn’t say it was right, but I do think that is the case.
In this question, you’ll never reach a happy medium with any Hoosier. If the State goes eastern, the west side of the state will be upset. If the State goes central, the east side of the State will be upset. It’s a no win situation no matter how it goes. In the long run, it’s probably better just to let it be for another generation, let people acclimate, then see if future Hoosiers want to mess with the time situation again.
Tom,
I think you might be right, but I would like for them to ask this question anyhow. After all, if we see that 70% support one way or the other, we can all be surpised. Until there is a vote, all we can do it guess.
I think a strong vote one way or the other might convince USDOT. A 52% vote won’t do it, but 60% or more just might!
I want “Ignore DST all year long” on the ballot. Central/Eastern? Whatever.
Lou,
It just depends on who you talk to in Sw Indiana as to what time zone they prefer.If they now have to commute to the Eastern time zone to work they`re not happy,if the counties change back and we`re on Eastern but you`re one of the few thousand that would have to now commute to one of the 6 counties that will be on Central time to the South then they`re not going to be happy.It`s a catch 22 so to speak.
Crooks is in a no win situation some want Eastern and some want Central because of Evansville ant the other 6 Central time counties.
It does get dark early which doesn`t bother me but I can see where some would not like it.I`m not going to do a search but I believe it gets dark here about the same time it does in New York or close to it.I do not mind Eastern time in the Winter I just do not want 9:30 and 10:00pm daylight in the Summer.
Dubois county businesses want Eastern time.They always have and many were at the DOT Jasper hearing November 2005 saying the same things they are saying now.I still think Eastern time as far as convenience of commerce will be hard to prove especially after reading the November 14th correspondence from Judith Kaleta but with the Governor pushing the petition it won`t surprise me if the DOT issues a NPRM and eventually grants the petition.
I agree with Joe that there probably are more important issues in the state but Crooks is just doing what his constituents want.They want to be heard on the matter vote on it if you will even if it is non-binding to the DOT.Most people think if there was a vote and the majority wanted Eastern or Central that`s what the DOT would do.We know different but most people on the street do not.They think majority rules in this matter.
Phillip,
What I think is curious is that there are 3 main contributors on the USDOT time docket(22114) for CT. Sometimes one person makes 6 or 7 consecutive entries.Pro-ET posts seem to made by all different people,maybe some repeats. These 3 people may have contributed half or more all the posts, although I have not taken tally. Has any one else noticed this? It looks like only a handful of people favor CT.
It just seems if this is such a heart-felt issue there should be more widespread interest on the CT side.These few people are very well documented and what they post is researched and seems accurate,but it’s very statistical.Those who want ET to prevail give reasons that CT has been divisive for their business and they often give personal accounts.
Do any people you know contribute to this docket? It seems that any person who has strong feelings should post on the docket.It’s like now it’s 3 people( plus a couple more) favoring CT against all the businesses favoring ET.
Eastern time for Indiana is Illegitimate! PERIOD! END OF DISCUSSION! Simple geography,folks. That is precisely the reason DST was not passed for so many years. People do not want to be on illegitimate time that is geographically incorrect and causes loss of sleep. I have been to several time zone meetings and the overwhelming majority of people wanted central time. Our present time zone was bought and paid for by Brinegar and his Indiana Chamber of Commerce lobbyist money. The people of Indiana’s voice WILL BE HEARD. BELIEVE THAT!!!
Lou,
Look back a few pages there were many different people from Dubois county supporting Central time and several from Knox county also supportingCentral.
The recent wave of submissions for Eastern time some repeats but not the majority from Dubois county are part of a organized effort by the Chamber of Commerce in Dubois county and by in my opinion the person who submits under the name Dubois county resident or annonymous they are one in the same person in my opinion and this wave came about after I made the statement that most people in Dubois county appeared to support Central time that’s when this new wave came in which is fine by me everyone should speak up.
However if you go back a few pages most people before this from Dubois county supported Central time.
You are correct about the businesses in Dubois county however I do not believe you will see businesses from Knox county supporting this petition.
I know people that want Eastern and I know people that want Central but none will take the time to submit.They`d rather wait for a decision and complain one way or the other.
The reason the Central time supporters are very well researched and statisticalis thats what this whole thing is supposed to be based on statistics,facts and convenience of commerce not it gets dark too early or I do not like Central time.So many have tried to stick to the facts and prove the Ice Miller petition wrong and that in fact the economies of the SW counties and businesses have not been hurt but are thriving on Central time by providing links to verifiable evidence and research that supports this claim.
By the way it was Dubois county commissioners who stated the majority in their county wanted Central time and still have not disputed that fact.Now they state they need to go Eastern for commerce reasons which were the very same reasons commissioner Burger dismissed at the Jasper DOT hearing.It was only after he was worked on by special interests in Jasper that he changed his vote for Eastern or so that is what State Senator Lindel Hume said last Summer.The new Dubois county vote was 2 for Eastern 1 for Central.
Back to the subject of Dubois county businesses they still have shown no verifiable evidence to show they are suffering on Eastern time.As the DOT stated they are in BEA are 54 with the other Central time counties to the South and two thirds of their exports are to places other than the Eastern time zone while almost 50% of their imports are from other than the Eastern time zone.Another good point by the DOT is historically they have been in line with the Central time zone for 7 months a year while only being in line with the Eastern time zone 5 months a year.I conceed the point about it being a burden being on a different time than the majority of the state.
The fact is they had three outright lies in that petition and a lot of misleading statements and they’ve been asked by the DOT to clear those up in the November 14th correspondence.I do not know if you’ve read that yet but there is a link to it posted on this blog back a few pages.
Thanks for your comments Lou you know I like to talk time zones!Heres something for you I exchanged emails a while back with Rep.Crooks who said a little over half the people he talks to now prefer Eastern time because of the early sunsets but as he stated if we were Eastern he’d probably hear complaints about 10:00pm daylight which I do not want and have mentioned a lot but makes no difference what so ever on this proceeding.I still say the Governor will get what he recomends but I’ve been wrong before.
Although any referendum is non-binding I still say people want to vote on this issue.Crooks says the same thing.I do believe Eastern would win though.
I almost forgot to mention Kimball International which is having a very profitable year on Central time compared to losses they were suffering on Eastern Standard time.This company despite all the evidence in print and media about huge profite this year continues to clammer for Eastern time.
Now do I think this Dubois county based business is doing well because they are in the Central time zone?No!i say it doesn’t matter which time zone they are in since they are a global company and time zones have very little to do with how well a company does or does not do in this century!
Lou,
The questions asked by the DOT in the November 14th correspondence to Ice Miller was a direct result of submissions made by Central time supporters ie Wal Mart distribution centers since the Joint Petition mentioned the Jackson county distribution center in the Eastern time zone which does not even supply two of the Wal Marts we know of, not sure about the third one.
FIA corporation question,Lawrence Memorial hospital question,Crane and Dubois county businesses having been histrically only in line with the Eastern time zone 5 months a year question and the Evansville Courier not being delivered in Martin county question.Mr.Byrd’s 11 page rebuttal petition submission is even referenced in this correspondence.The Courier is delivered in Martin county.Toyota’s influence on the region question.These questions asked to be explained and cleared up are all a result of some of the research and statistics you speak of submitted by Central time supporters.It may be just a few who do the submitting and research but that doesn’t change the facts or the truth.
Lou, I just looked back and saw you were involved in this discussion and probably read the DOT correspondence.I’ve talked so much time zone I must have forgotten.
Phillip,
This is the phenomenum of the time zone war: people gather statistics they personally don’t care about,but since they seem to prove a point for what they want and USDOT seems to want them, then they gather them and present them. One well-written anonymous post on the docket was very insightful ,and it is summarized basically this way. ‘Time zone assignment is an aid for the convenience of commerce,and can help or hinder a business on a daily basis, but it doesnt necessarily have anything to do with business success or profit’. That’s why anecdotes are more compelling than statistics .Are these detailed statistics and facts co-incidental? An actual account tells that at least once,something was true and valid..This is the case when someone says ‘Indiana belongs in the Central Time Zone’ . Don’t give statistics or longitudinal co-ordinates alone,because that’s irrelevant to any person’s daily life.
But numbers do matter a great deal and the more different people post,tying a statistic or fact with an individualized vignette the better it is for the whole process.In my estimation many more people are upset than post.
And it doesn’t matter if people are pushed or encouraged by the ‘Chamber or Commerce’ or by ‘Hoosiers for Central Time’ What’s important is that each individual write his own lines.Many of us obviously need a push ,but we are able to choose our own ‘pushers’ therefore we are speaking for ourselves.
Some of you may have read these comments on the Docket last Jan. Events have since overtaken some of the conditions. But I believe the arguments are still valid, relevant, and timely.
Now comes the difficult part. The gracious lady, Judy Kaleta, from the U.S. Department of Transportation has gather the information from the hearings and returned to Washington D.C. where the information will be analyzed and used to make the final decision which we are told will be based on “convenience of commerceâ€.
This decision will not be easy. There was much conflicting testimony at the hearings and in the Docket. It is apparent that commerce should not be the only consideration. That people’s lives will be affected in very personal ways by the decision. Where is the best place to place a boundary line? For example, is it best to place the line on St. Joseph County’s western border with La Porte County or on its eastern border with Elkhart County or perhaps on Elkhart County’s border with Lagrange County? Then what about Marshall County?
Boundary lines are by their very nature contentious. That wherever they are placed will create difficulties and conflicts. Once you start dividing a state at the county level when and where do you stop? Each cut that is made creates new problems. Enough cuts and you have a bloody mess. There is a common thread running throughout the hearings and the Docket and that is a plea for unity. The Docket is full of requests not to separate their county from the neighboring county. To paraphrase our favorite son “A house united is much happier than a house divided and that it should become all one thing or all the otherâ€. Twenty miles south of the site of the hearing in Jasper is Spencer County where Lincoln grew to manhood. The irony is Spencer and Dubois counties are separated by the Central/Eastern time zone boundary line. After all is said and done, no matter how many counties are transferred to the central zone the basic problem will remain. Our House called Indiana will still be divided and unsatisfied.
This process chosen by DOT places an unusually heavy burden on everyone concerned. The county commissioners had to choose between the desires of its citizens and the prospect of being separated from the neighboring counties. Many people are rightly frightened by this very prospect. The Department of Transportation itself has the heaviest burden. It must make a decision on a problem that has no clear cut answer as to what is right and what is wrong. It is a lose-lose situation.
State Representative David Crooks has proposed this matter be placed before the people as a referendum on the 2006 ballot. This suggestion has merit and may well be the only solution to the problem. By placing this issue in the hands of the people it removes it from the elected officials who would like the problem to just go away and it would provide guidance to the Department of Transportation when it makes the final ruling which only it can make. After all, the ballot box is the method preferred by Americans to settle conflicts and to resolve issues.
Rep. Crooks’s proposal is meeting opposition from those who say the referendum would be a waste of time because the state cannot make the ruling and that only DOT can do so. A public statement from DOT stating to the effect it would welcome the guidance of the voters of Indiana and that the results of a referendum would be given due consideration would assist Rep. Crooks’ worthwhile effort.
Jim B.
Well said!When some say a referendum although non-binding would be a waste of time I say this is a rediculous statement.When is it ever a waste of time for people to vote on a issue and be heard?
Lou,
The problem as Ive stated before with Eastern time supporters is they submit inaccurate information and half truths as did the Joint Petition.Central time supporters have uncovered the truth behind the statements and provided the correct information with verifiable sources provided.No such sources are ever provided by the Eastern time supporters because they can not prove their case as far as convenience of commerce for Eastern time for the counties.I take that back a few did provide some sources.
The most recent half truths uncovered were that BR Associates who clammer for Eastern time actually have more retaurants in the Central time zone a little fact that they did not mention in their submissions rather stating most of their businesses were in the Eastern time zone.I guess they did not figure anyone would look up their info to see if it were true.Thanks for the comments. You come across as a non biased person in this matter as far as time zone preference.
“Don’t give statistics or longitudinal co-ordinates alone,because that’s irrelevant to any person’s daily life.”
Lou, Tell that to somebody that has to get their kids to bed at 9:30 when it’s unnaturally light outside. GMT,where the globe is simply divided into 24 quadrants and assigned time zones accordingly is the ONLY standard of time. There are in some rare cases other factors involved but geography should be THE deciding factor. As I have pointed out before,if we’re going to use weak economic arguments over simple geography why not put LA,Chicago,and NY on the same time zone?
Fact is ,living in the only state that geographically lies entirely in one time zone (central)yet observes another (eastern)is extremely relevant to our daily lives. This illegitimate(for this state) time zone encourages people to stay up later when they have to get up an hour earlier. Lost sleep=lost production at work,school,and at home.It’s also inherently less safe for schoolkids and I do believe the crime rates went up throughout the state.
Phillip,
I find it cruelly ironic that the DOT seems to be finally listening to the arguments that were raised in the original time zone hearings. Namely the fact that they don’t seem to be buying the business argument that said they would suffer being on central time when they have effectively been on central time over half the year for 30 some odd years.I just wish they would have called Bait and Switch Mitch,Money Bags Brinegar, and their Chamber of Comerce cronies on this and their other ridiculous arguments in the first place
24 quadrants sounds like 20 too many to me.
Interestingly, though, when viewing the planet from one of the geographic poles, 24 sectors sounds exactly right… :)
I guess quad does mean four, doesn’t it? Alright, my bad ,sectors it is.I think you get my drift. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to divide the globe and assign time zones accordingly. Eastern supporters act like this is some kind of weird science gobbledygook.
chuckcentral,
No big deal, I was just being pedantic. And you’re hardly alone in the error — there were countless Star Trek computer games written in the 1970s and 1980s that got the same point completely wrong.
I myself have a mild preference for EST over CST, but I’m not passionate about it — unlike my feelings about Daylight Saving Time. If I were handed a gun and DST were brought before me bound and blindfolded I wouldn’t hesitate to pull the trigger.
chuckcentral,
Central time supporters have effectively squashed every argument made against Central time for the SW counties with verifiable links to evidence in our submissions as well as doing the required research.One Dubois county resident who always posts for Eastern time stated they could not understand how anyone would have the time or take time to write 48,30,and 11 page rebuttal petitions and doing that amount of research.It`s simple weekends and after work.These people simply believe in the Central time cause for SW Indiana and we have to do things ourselves since we can`t afford to shell out the thousands of dollars the Governor is paying ICE MILLER LLP to represent the counties from a state fund.
Frankly our petitions were much more accurate and better written.It will be interesting to read the responses to the questions the DOT put forth to ICE MILLER to clear up.
All this being said we still face a uphill battle because Mitch usually gets what he wants when it comes to time zones.I hold out hope that if all the evidence is taken into consideration the DOT will finally deny this man his wishes for once!
As far as sunrises and sunsets go our sunrises and sunsets in the Central time zone are pretty much in line with New York,Chicago,and St Louis which is understandable since this state lies completely in the Central time zone and placing it in Eastern completely screws up the sunrise and sunset times but I’m sure you know this.
The more I have thought about this, the more I think EDT will be the winning vote. While we all care about this issue (DST or not, EDT or CDT), most Hoosiers are just pissed that everything changed. I don’t think most will care what TZ we SHOULD be on, I think they’ll vote for the one that changes things the least. I hope I’m wrong!
A return to the status quo ante Mitch suits me just fine.
I once figured out that the only major American city farther east than Chicago in its time zone was Boston,MA,and that by just a little.That would mean that Indiana,all of which is east of Chicago, would also be an extreme postion in the CTZ.
Of course it’s difficult to get kids to bed when its light out,but that should be the issue, not ‘longitudinal co-ordinates’. I’ve spent summers near Minneapolis.And June sunset there is somewhat after 9PM, similar to Indiana.Why don’t people complain in Michigan and Kentucky about EDT? They probably used to when it was new, but have since adjusted to the rhythm,and people complain even more in Indiana, imo, because they don’t like Mitch and he didnt handle the TZ situation well( he never understood the passion nor the history),after getting DST passed. And the govenor has already come out in favor of ET,which throws more hot coals on the fire. People are disoriented,some a lot, by DST the first week after time change, even though they have been changing time all their lives.
No one knows what USDOT will do but if ‘to facilate commerce’ is a criteria then it would seem ET would win hands down. Almost every business that I have read on docket favors ET.Isn’t that what the issue is? It was pointed out above somewhere that only Dubois County business favors ET,and the businesses in other counties don’t. My point was that everyone should post his preference then.That’s what the docket is for.
And too much is made of Ice Miller.If what is written and presented is inaccurate, then that should be the focus. We’ve had 8 years of our current administration attacking sources to discredit the facts;now everyone does it.
My sincere hope is that the process is seen as fair.I’ve learned so much about the history of time in USA by following in this blog…A advisory referendum would be very revealing and the best way to encourage future legislative and DOT action . Otherwise, whether these 5 counties remain on CT, or are changed back to ET, the time issue will be dead.All the key counties will have been dealt with,but a referendum may start a whole new series of actions. As someone posted above, it would be crucial that DOT indicate in advance that they would consider such as referendum.
I apologize for sounding like such a know-it-all, but it is all just my opinion. I’ll always respond to questions and critics.
You need to do some more figuring Lou, San Diego is also further east in its time zone than Chicago, and with a population in excess of 1.25 million, considerably larger than Boston. Nashville is also further east in its time zone than Chicago, as is Birmingham, Alabama.
From the 1920’s to the 1970’s Michigan was more notorious for its DST battles and time zone battles than Indiana. In Michigan it was something of a Grand Rapids vs. Detroit fight, which during the heyday of the US auto industry, Grand Rapids was probably bound to lose.
Paul
San Diego and Nashville are very close to same position as Chicago( 1 degree and half degree farther east) in their TZ positions. Boston is same as Indianapolis in CTZ. So it looks like only Maine would be wholly farther east than Indiana in its time zone position.
I remember reading about the CT vs ET wars in Detroit city govt between 1900 and 1916 when ET was finally assigned by ICC,so the west Michigan vs Detroit time fights came after that and now not an issue…interesting and historic.
Sounds like Dave Crooks has a good proposal for putting the time zone issue in Indiana to a voter’s test. As you have all said, even though a referendum would be nonbinding from the DOT’s perspective, perhaps it would at least give some quantifiable numbers to the issue, it makes me wish I was still a citizen of Indiana and could vote there. Of course, as Doug’s website and other venues have shown for some reason time is contentious in Indiana, and perhaps a referendum would give some solid data to the debate. I have relatives in the Union City area and other areas in Indiana who have differing opinions, some of the discussions have gotten really heated. Anyway, Happy New Year to all. I am going to Miami next week with some friends to cheer on U of L in the Orange Bowl. Everyone have a great 2007!
Lou,I`ll say it again.The same Dubois county businesses made the exact same arguments in November 2005 at the DOT Jasper hearing which were rejected by the DOT.It is the opinion of Central time supporters that most of these people who own these businesses are doing the pushing for Eastern time not because of convenience of commerce reasons but for their personal conveniences.
What you say that if this thing is supposed to be about commerce and not longitude and latitude would be true if the afore mentioned businesses could show they are being hindered on Central time which they have not done and in fact the economies of the SW counties are doing well as are the very businesses that clammer for Eastern time.
If these businesses in Dubois county are being hurt on Central time they need to offer up some proof as the DOT correspondence stated Crane and Dubois county businesses have been in line with the Central time zone before this mess 7 months a year for over thirty years.I live in this region and never heard them complaining in all that time!
If Kimball is being hurt why the the record fiscal quarters and a profitable year?If BR Associates is being hurt on Central time why do they continue to build restaurants in the Central time zone?
How do businesses such as Toyota in Gibson county which has always been on Central time continue to expand and prosper when Gibson county is so near Dubois county?How does Holiday World in Spencer county which again has always been on Central time and borders Dubois county have over a million visitors and announce a multi-million dollar expansion if Central time is so bad for business?How do all the businesses in Perry,Spencer,Warrick and Vanderburgh counties get by on Central time in which three of the afore mentioned counties border Dubois county?Not to mention Evansville one of the largest cities in Indiana is just right down the road from Jasper.
Does Mitch support Eastern time for the state now?When he was running for Governor he said Central made the most sense.Oh I forgot it is left up to the individual counties to make the decision like St.Joseph county decided for Central and the DOT agreed until Mitch said no he didn’t want that so in the end the DOT rejected it.Frankly you need a printed program to keep up with all of his positions on this matter.
I do agree with you this is about convenience of commerce but just because a business says Eastern time serves them best doesn’t make it true.I mean if the Chamber of Commerce and businesses say we think lower wages,not having to pay health insurance and overtime costs and a seventy hour work week would be good for our profit margins and good for business thereby making us able to expand and add jobs do we repeal laws and grant their requests just because they say it is so?
Sorry to be so sarcastic but I’ve heard this Dubois county business crowd and non-Central time Crane employee crowd now for a long time and they never offer one verifiable piece of evidence Central time is hurting the convenience of commerce for the SW counties.I’m sorry but just because they say it’s so doesn’t make it so.They are entitled to their opinions and to post submissions to the DOT all they want just as we are entitled to show and link evidence that dispute their claims.
Maybe some of us do mention Ice Miller too much but it is our belief they intentionally wrote misleading information and some untruthful information to bolster their case.I guess the misleading stuff shouldn`t matter after all they were arguing a case for Eastern time but I have a problem with the few lies they told.Oh well it’s been dealt with in the November 14th correspondence from the DOT so thats that.
I agree with you I’ve learned so much about time following this blog and this Daylight Saving time situation.I saw the Governor on TV last year on a PBS prgram Shively and Shoulders and he said the thing he underestimated the most was the passion behind the time issue!
I agree time zones are a matter of getting used to that’s why the counties should have stuck with Central time for a few years then see what people thought about it.I can guarantee the same Dubois county businesses would still want Eastern time and of course anyone who lives in one time zone but works in another which is understandable.
The reason the Joint Petition did not mention Holiday World in thier petition under recreation is the park management supports Central time and spoke for it at the Jasper hearing.
Not to ramble on but the thing I underestimated in this was the oposition to Central time from Dubois county businesses.Jasper is so close to Evansville and a lot of people from Dubois county run to Evansville to shop and for recreation and other things.I also figured since Dubois county bordered Central time zone counties that’s what the businesses would want to be in line with.Also when you compare the major newspaper circulation of the Evansville Courier to the Indy Star in the region it’s not even close.
Lou,
I almost forgot whether the process is fair will depend on if you’re a person who gets what they want.I mean if the petition is denied and the counties stay Central some of us will say it’s over it was fair the end!While Eastern time supporters will cry foul demand more action and a push for a referendum vote.
If the counties are granted Eastern time the Eastern time supporters will say the end no need for a referendum the DOT decided it was fair.Meanwhile Central time supporters will say it was fixed because of the Governor and we need a referendum.does that sound about right to you?
I do not mean to sound like a know it all either although I sometimes probably come across that way.I just have very stong opinions about this and really do believe Central time is best for SW Indiana mainly because of Evansville and the other Central time counties to the South of our counties.
Phillip,
The commerical posts favoring ET don’t criticize CT. They criticize having to deal with a time zone change between themselves and the rest of the state.Longitude is NEVER an issue.There’s a lot of passion in the time zone debate and that creates a certain ‘know-it-all-ism’.I feel somewhat embarassed making all these comments since I live out of state.But I’ve followed this Hoosier debate since St Joseph and Elkhart commissioners promised each other that they would never allow their counties to be divided by a time zone,and so here we are.And before that,I was around and in and out of the state when Indiana first went to ET about 1960.Brownsburg used to be on the ‘frontier’ of ET when traveling to Indy from the west.
I think it’s generally true that those who favor CT, see it as Indiana’s ‘manifest time destiny’and they bring up longitude in their presentation. .Those who favor ET, don’t really care,except they want just one time,and ET is the best unifier considering the current time situation.And all the ‘big money’ does seem to favor ET also…but maybe that’s just the promise of profit in a unified time zone. CT-ers would glady put all of Indiana on CT, even though surrounded by ET on north, east and most of south.It’s the longitude! ..two different groups with two different premises…
I need to correct a factual mistake made by Lou:
The actual border mileage for Indiana is
394 Central Time to 393 Eastern Time
This was done BEFORE the re-assignments in January 2006. It would be even more favorable for Central if the “new” assignments were used.
===============================================
CENTRAL TIME BORDERS
Whiting – Michiana Shores 36.9836 MILES
Perry County-Mt.Vernon(PoseyCo) 87.5951 MILES
Mt.Vernon(PoseyCo)- Whiting 269.8375 MILES
—————-
394.4162 MILES
===============================================
EASTERN TIME BORDERS
Michiana Shores-Clear Lake 103.2258 MILES
Clear Lake-Jeffersonville 246.7029 MILES
Jeffersonville-Perry County 43.3759 MILES
——————
393.3046 MILES
And on these “eastern time borders”, the states on the other side, MICHIGAN, OHIO, KENTUCKY, should all be on Central Time based on
their longitudes.
===============================================
So even with a stacked deck in favor of Eastern, CENTRAL Time comes out ahead anyway: 394.4162 – 393.3046 MILES
And if Michigan, Ohio, and Kentucky were classified correctly as Central,
it would be a 787.7208 – 000.000 shutout
in favor of CENTRAL Time.
I computed the “great circle” route for each stretch, which is the “as the crow flies” distance. To follow all the little meanderings is a much more difficult problem
by huge orders of magnitude! :)
Sure, but why bring the Coast of Britain into this? :)
Doug I hope you don’t mind me introducing your readers to an Australian web site called The Light of Day. http://www.nodaylightsavingqld.com/Index.html
Here is a sample
Epilogue – ‘At the End of the Day’
Back when the nation was in its prime
They invented a thing called ‘Standard Time’
The clocks had been dithering, all of a bother
And now they finally agreed with each other.
But such are the ways of human nature
– And this was not lost on those men of stature
Who decide what we earn and how we spend –
That stability is a dangerous trend.
‘Seize the day!’ they boomed. ‘And the daylight, too!
Rule the sun before it rules you!
Time’s a commodity to be bought and sold!
Control the clocks and you won’t grow old!’
Then a battle raged between larks and owls,
Between north and south – and still it howls.
Between colder climes and tropical days
The clocks again move in mysterious ways.
The south does a barndance, forward and back.
The north does a softshoe, slow but not slack.
And, when all’s said and done at the end of the day,
Time merely laughs at what the clocks say.
(c) 2001 Light of Day
Pure genius wouldn’t you say?
Why not let reason rule the day? Jim
Do you really think that this will pass the Senate? With a 33-17 GOP hold, I say the chances aren’t that great, IMO
Whiting – Michiana Shores 36.9836 MILES
Isn’t the IN/MI border out in the lake? Maps Ive seen have IL/IN/MI with extended borders into the lake where they form a T above eastern city limits of Gary( if precise calculation is important).
Also, why is Rep Crooks introducing this question of TZ preference to the state? Isn’t his district already on CT ? Best someone from Indianapolis introduce it. Hopefully there are many co-sponsors from all parts of the state.
The calculation was done for the shortest path between Whiting and Michiana Shores. There are no people living in the water of the lake itself. Thus the calculation was done as it was.
And why should it matter who introduces what bill? The people of this state have not had a chance to directly give their opinion in a manner it which it would tallied with no political propaganda machine being able to stop it. It’s never wrong for the people to have their opinions tallied in an official manner. Public opinion polls and surveys don’t get everyone and can be manipulated. An actual vote at the polls gets everyone who’s interested enough to want their opinion counted.
I think Rep. David Crooks should be applauded for setting this process in motion. And actually his area is at this point in the midst of having its re-petition go back to Eastern analyzed by the USDOT. The situation developed because some weren’t happy that they were on a different time than other areas.
The way the potential referendum is worded is the logical way: it asks what time zone would you prefer for all of Indiana so that a person can answer the question without having to worry about what the neighboring county will end up saying. What will be interesting will be to see how the votes come out in each of the 92 counties. Who knows, perhaps a clear pattern would emerge showing differences around the state, or maybe the percentages would be similar no matter what part of the state you were looking at.
Anyone who has been living in Indiana for the last two years knows that at no point were the people of the state allowed to advise their leaders in way where an actual numerical tally for all voters was taken. This
referendum proposed by Rep. David Crooks is the first action taken by the government that acknowledges that the people have the right to be heard directly and specifically on this particular issue.
Typo corrections to my above post:
(1) in the first paragraph it should have
read “lake” and not “late”.
Thus, it should read:
The calculation was done for the shortest path
between Whiting and Michiana Shores. There are
no people living in the water of the LAKE itself.
Thus the calculation was done as it was.
(2) in the fourth paragraph, the second “about”
was inadvertently left there after I’d
changed the sentence structure.
Thus it should read:
without having to worry about what the neighboring county will end up saying.
( I went ahead and made these corrections – Doug)
Mr. Sagarin, with all due respect, I don’t believe the Governor pushed DST/Eastern through based on the science related to time, but rather on a perception about the business advantages of being in the Eastern zone.
On the surface, when one calculates the population of the various cities in the Eastern zone (NYC, DC, Atlanta, Philly, Detroit, Miami, etc., etc.) versus the cities in the Central zone (Dallas, Houston, Chicago, Minneapolis, St Louis, Kansas City, etc.), from the business persepctive, Eastern is a no-brainer. This is not an argument against the geographic proximity studies, but the prevailing parallel argument.
For what it’s worth, my own perspective is that there should be one prevailing time zone set by state government, with counties permitted to opt out by popular ballot. Thus, you would see SW & NW counties go Central, and SE & NE counties go Eastern regardless of what the state gov’t sets the prevailing zone as.
Mr. Kole,with all due respect when the governor campaigned he said central time would be best. He went into reasons why it would be best. This is documented and has been cited many times before-Bait. So the fact that the governor pushed DST/Eastern through for any reason-Switch proves he’s a sellout and apparently is willing to sellout anybody for some of that Indiana Chamber of Commerce/lobbyist campaign cash. Of course he’s had a lot of Republican cronies enable him to do accomplish this task.
If you go onto the US Census Bureau website
you will find that the mean and median centers
of population have moved westward every census.
As of 2000, the mean center of population was
in Phelps County, Missouri. And the median was
in Daviess County in southwestern Indiana.
And by now as we’re about to enter 2007, they’ve each undoubtably moved even further west.
Here is that link:
http://www.census.gov/geo/www/cenpop/cntpop2k.html
So from a business standpoint, it doesn’t
make sense at all to be distancing ourselves as much possible away from the increasingly larger
part of the US population.
I think it was Jeff’s analysis where I first saw this, but the business point I thought was most compelling was an analysis of how many business hours you would have in common with the rest of the nation. In the Central Time Zone, you have more hours in common with more people. You capture most of the hours of the east but also have more overlap with the west.
chuckcentral,
AMEN!The Governor ran on Central but quickly reneged because of the chamber of commerce and the nonsensical notion business would be harmed on Eastern time.
Central time supporters in SW Indiana have proven almost every statement made by Eastern time supporters about Central time hurting the SW counties to be false with verifiable links to evidence provided to the DOT.
Many of us would like to see a referendum, just to see how people would vote. But it’s ironic that after all the detailed researched data and facts so painstaking gathered, presented and discussed , so many are willing to set it all aside and ‘have a vote of the people’,and then go on from there.
There’s no research involved to support my opinions,( I do ask around when I’m in Indiana).Asking longtime aquaintances,real estate agents and waitresses in truck stops is a type of research and documentation ,and could be as accurate as researched data if there are enough samplings…
The NW and the SW corners of the state would vote nearly 100% for CT.The question would be how far the influence would hold. Indianapolis and suburbs would approve ET,but by how much is the question.. What’s important is that these 3 areas are major population areas,and would have to be heard.DOT would defer to CT in the corners and ET in the middle and we’d be back to where we are now: where does all the rest of the state go timewise? When all is said and done,and DOT will have decided again,we’d see a map similar to the TZ map that existed between about 1960 til the recent changes,but with DST added.This seems truly popular sentiment coupled with the necessity of forced ‘practical decision’. Some people would actually get the TZ they preferred in a perfect world,but most others would have to choose who they align with..St Joseph and Elkhart counties( an emotional battle already fought once) would not be split,but considering the surrounding areas, where would both be assigned as one unit? It would be ‘deja vue all over again’, as the saying goes.
But let’s hope for a statewide question on the 2008 ballot! Theres’s an unpredictable side to every issue.
I’ll offer an article I found favoring the pro-Central time movement in Indiana. It is entitled “Incidence off Winter Depression varies Within Time Zones” authored by T.M White of the New York State Office of Mental Health; M. Terman of the New York State Psychiatric Institute; G.J. Musa, Columbia University Dept. off Psychiatry and D.H. Avery, University of Washington. They concluded, in relevant part that: “(2) The time zone effect demonstrates that later sunrise per se – in distinction from night length – is a significant risk factor for SAD. (3) People who live in the western tier of time zones suffer more than their neighbors just a few miles away in the eastern tier of adjacent time zones – a disruptive quantum effect of the time zone artifice.” The longitude effects were concluded to be strongest above 39 degrees north latititude, which corresponds to about the latitude of Seymour, Indiana. More information is available at http://www.cet.org.
Lou,
As I stated before as far as SW Indiana is concerned if the DOT does not grant the Joint Petition for Eastern time and leaves the area on Central time supporters of Central time will say fine,the DOT decided we do not need a referendum.Eastern time supporters will cry foul and along with the help of businesses and the chamber of commerce push for a referendum.If Eastern time is granted Central time supporters will cry foul and say that the process is rigged in favor of whatever the Governor wants.Eastern time supporters will say we do not need a referendum the DOT decided this is final.
It will only feel final to whatever side wins in my opinion.Doug’s post today says it best it’s about proximity as to whether you’re happy about DST.I’ve said before if the folks in INDY had a time zone line next to them they’d be screaming for something to get done and I can almost say for sure something would be done.The Governor come’s out smelling bad in this whole thing.First it’s a local decision then when it’s a decision he doesn’t like ie ST Joseph county he sticks his nose in.
I still say Eastern would win in a referendum vote and I may be wrong but wouldn’t the Indiana chamber of commerce and many businesses spend a lot of money on a adevertising campaign to support Eastern time.To a smaller degree last April when Dubois county had another time zone meeting businesses bought shirts for employees and told them to show up at the meeting to support Eastern time.
Here’s something for everyone Rep.Dave Crooks stated in the Washington Times Hearld last week he wanted the referendum to see where people were on this matter and although the DOT has asked for further info from Ice Miller he expected the Joint Petition to be granted but not until this Fall.My question Lou,is do you think any of these politicians really know what’s going to happen??I remember last August a lot of area county commissioners were saying behind the scenes the Joint Petition would be granted January 1st as requested by Ice Miller.
Certainly if you look at the history of this proceeding it shows the Governor usually gets what he wants in regard to time zones.I stll maintain the petition does not prove the case for Eastern time and the only point I will conceed to the Eastern time people is that it is a burden being a hour behind the majority of the state and that’s the only point I will conceed in this matter.
Phillip,
It’s hard to respond without personalizing the the time question into ‘good guys’ and ‘bad guys’ and to avoid repeating the same characterizations,and proposing the same arguments. I was just also reading the post above by Paul where he brings out the ‘Incidence of Winter Depression’ of those who live in the western end of time zones.Those people are probably already all in favor of CT,but it’s a real issue.Winter is depressing generally because it’s dark so much and a cloudy Winter day is very short. And getting up is harder for more people than going to bed.I dont think I would have liked an added hour of morning Winter darkness.I found Wisconsin Winters more cheery than those in Illinois because Wisconsin has a lot of sunny days in Winter compared to Illinois( and Indiana).Northern Europe has the worst Winters of anywhere I have ever spent time..always dark,always cloudy and usually raining or snowing. Can we just see Rembrant and Mozart at work with their genius with all the shades closing off the darkness and wet outside ?So,everything is relative,and if you take one step in any direction the list of solution choices has a different order of preference.
Do I think politicans know what’s going on? They may from their persectives, but I think the time issue is one they figure they can’t solve, so maybe they’re just looking for political advantage.Is it true,what you posted, that Rep. Crooks will offer his Time Question for the ballot ONLY if these 5 counties return to ET? Yes, I think probably these 5 counties will be returned to ET because of the consistant posting by Business to the docket that they are being inconvenienced by having to deal with a TZ change between them and Louisville and Indianapolis,and their customers.’Inconvenience to commerce’ is a core consideration..Also, on what grounds could DOT ignore the Govenor’s recommendation? They could ,but they would have to specifically explain why they did,and that would be a terrible political blow to the Daniels administration.Therefore would there be political ramifications? November would be the best time for a change to avoid a 2-hour time shift in March. Did I read on the docket that Evansville Airport has no connecting flights to Indy or to Louisville? I hope someone can verify that.
IT shouldn’t be long now til we all know what DOT is recommending.
oops, I think I meant ‘Rembrandt’
Lou,
I’m not sure about the Evansville airport question.Rocky Byrd has done some work on this and made a post to the docket with a link where it states “Additional flights between Evansville and Indianapolis are being made possible by a recent $1 million US Department of Transportation grant.
Do you find it strange that only Dubois county businesses are posting in support of Eastern time?Not to keep repeating myself but it is my opinion and many others that these businesses are posting for Eastern more for personal preference than commerce.While the INDY being a hour ahead is valid the Louisville argument is not since as stated by the DOT Dubois county has historically been 1 hour behind the Eastern time zone (Louisville) almost 7 months a year for over thirty years.
I think a few more businesses would post for Eastern time if a new docket is opened but I do not see any businesses from Knox county posting in favor of Eastern time.I also think if Eastern is granted there will be a lot of unhappy people especially in Dubois county.Earlier this Summer the posts out of Dubois county were overwhelmingly for Central as was public opinion as stated by the Mayor of Jasper and the Dubois county commissioners I think most peole have quieted because they think since it has been so long since the petition was filed they think they’re time zone is safe or set.I’m sure you know most people do not pay attention until it’s too late or something is about to change like if they wake up one day (in Dubois county) to go to work in Spencer county and find themselves a hour ahead of their work place.
Excellent comments about the Governor and the DOT and that part of the situation I have always belived this to be true.I say the DOT could deny the Joint Petition on the grounds it does not serve the convenience of commerce and has not proven the case for Eastern but you’re comments are probably closer to what’s going to happen.
Lou,,
On business or commerce favoring Eastern time. The same Dubois county businesses made the same arguments for Eastern time at the DOT Jasper hearing in Nov.2005 and these arguments were rejected by the DOT so are you saying the DOT will now say these arguments are valid and flip flop on their position last year when they said that area businesses arguments for Eastern time were not valid therby not hindering convenience of commerce??