Sure, it’s irony,but it’s also a facet of a long standing debate over immigration and border control. Many want to blur illegal vs legal and want us all to see only immigrants,keeping with the American tradition of this country, made great by immigrants of all origins.
Why are the immigrants illegal and what does that mean? Who benefits and who are the losers? Hopefully others will continue with this thread and shed some light.
Lou,
The winners in the illegal vesus legal immigration debate are Editorial writers for news papers and Immigration lawyers who`s job`s and wages are not threatened by a masive influx of low skilled cheap labor.In fact many of these people probably employee some of these illegal immigrants to take care of their kids,clean their house or cut their grass!
Other winners are landlords who pack twenty and thirty people to a house so they can charge huge rent which is currently going on 30 or so miles from here in Huntingburg where a person is buying and then renting modular homes and stuffing them with these people charging a lot of money.The mayor and city council is already trying to find a way to stop this by passing a ordinance.
The biggest winner is corporations who are exploiting the illegal immigrants for finacial gain.A example of this is the meat packing industry which twenty years ago paid a average of around $19 a hour it now currently averages $9.While the plant workers wages have declined the upper tier management in this industries wages have increased almost 400 percent.
Many of the arrests at the Swift plant were also for identity theft where the illegals were not only using fake documents but American citizens social security numbers thereby stealing their identities.
The losers are tax payers and all legal citizens of this country.Hospitals are closing 81 in California alone because of emergency room care of illegals and are schools are becoming overwhelmed because teachers must spend more time trying to teach illegals English instead of working with our children.
If the amnesty that Harry Reid,President Bush and Speaker Pelosi want passes and make no mistake about it it`s a amnesty the rush will be on from South of the border millions more will be on the way.Look how well the 86 amnesty worked.What did that get us but 12 to thirty million more illegal immigrants.
There are legal ways to become a citizen of this country and illegaly crossing the border isn`t one of them.This is the most welcoming country in the world but a orderly process must be followed or you have chaos like we have now.
Let`s also not forget that most of the drugs imported into this country come from Mexico and that a recent Homeland Security Dept report stated Islamic terrorists have alresdy crossed the border and many people classified as other than Mexicans have been detained.
The reason new Majority leader Harry Reid has already said they will not fund the 700 miles of new double layered border fence that some Democrats in the Senate voted for is because it works to a degree and would slow down the flood of illegals.A 14 mile section of this type of fence in San Diego has proven effective.Crossings are way down and also the crime rate.
No it`s not fool proof but is another tool in the fight.Homeland Security chief Chertof and Harry Reid favor the “virtual fence” with sensors and cameras and high tech gadgets that do not work and have proven ineffective.
One reason we can conclude the fence would be somewhat effective is that Mexico was so much against it and was even threatening to go to the United Nations to complain.
Mexico one of the richest countries in Latin America, a country rich in oil and tourism which has about half of it`s population living in abject poverty doesn`t want anything to get in the way of the twenty billion dollars in remittances it gets from it`s citizens living in this country.This is also a country which does have it`s military on it`s border that robs and rapes and abuses other Central American illegal immigrants as they try to cross Mexicos border to get to the U.S.
Mexico is also a country where it is a felony to cross into their country illegally and is punishable by two years in jail yet their government and some of their citizens who are in this country illegally constantly are demanding rights for which they are not entitled to as they waive their Mexican flags.Remember many of these peoples favorite saying is “we didn`t cross the border the border crossed us” and believe the Southwest part of the United States belongs to Mexico.
In Stilmore Georgia for example a few months back the city passed anti-illegal immigration ordinances aginst employing or renting to these people most chose to flee town before the ordinances were challenged by the ACLU and other groups.This left the poultry processing plant almost empty but in a manor of a few weeks the plant had all the workers it needed Black,White,and Hispanic all legal citizens of this country, of course they had to pay more in wages which the CEO of this company probably did not like the report showed a picture of his mansion on the outskirts of town.And before anyone says if the labor rate in these plants raise we won`t be able to afford a steak or a chicken it`s obvious where the wages they do not pay the employees of these meat processing plants goes which is in the pocket of the upper tier management while the workers get the shaft and since these companies have had a supply of and employ illegal immigrants wages for these plants keep declining!!
As far as my Congressman (8th District) elect Ellsworth`s position on illegal immigration I spoke to him about it less than a month before the election he stated he was against amnesty or legalization and the proposed guest worker program and said he only differed from Hostettler on the issue in that we needed more work site enforcement with harsher penalties on employers of illegal immigrants.Whether he sticks to this position now that he`s been elected who knows.
I almost forgot a few more losers in this discussion the Marine back from Iraq and some of his friends who were shot and killed by a illegal immigrant who had numerous viloent crimes on his rap sheet but was out walking around free and had not been deported and the Marine back from Iraq and his fiancee who were killed by a drunk driver who was also a illegal immigrant with no licsense and had numerous drunk driving convictions but again wasn`t deported and let`s not forget the Houston police officer father of seven who after arresting a illegal immigrant and placing him in the back of his car and had not found the gun hidden on the illegal immigrant was shot in the back and killed.The illegal immigrant had previously been deported after being convicted of molesting a 12 year old girl but had crossed back into the U.S. again imagine that!
It is not the responsibility of this government to be a safety valve for a corrupt government in Mexico to ship it`s poverty too so greedy companies landlords and the like can turn a big profit and Mexico can relieve itself of it`s obligation to it`s own citizens!!!
The reason people who support strong border security and immigration by only legal means are labled racist is because the other side can not win the argument so their last defense is to resort to name calling.
Another thing that has always bothered me is the fact that their seems to be no push to make these people assimilate.Their seems to be really no need for them to learn English since everything is currently in Spanish and any call for them to learn English is met with a harsh response from the the left and some media outlets.I know the comprehensive immigration plan(amnesty) that was proposed stated the people had to learn English and pay back taxes and so forth but if anyone thinks the Federal Government could enforce this plan you`re living in fantasy land!
Phillip,
You have some of the same concerns I have. First there’s rampant exploitation for cheap labor. Anyone ‘illegal’ isnt going to go to the local public defender to sue for legal rights,being classified illegal himself.
And it’s not even what to do with 12 million immigrants with ill-defined legality. We assume they stay .We can’t deport who we can’t identify,and who’s going to do it?But what procedures can we set up now that are predictable and fair for future in-coming people?
And what you say is true about Mexican govt having an attitude toward USA.It’s part of their campaign speeches. I lived in Mexico and went to school in Mexico City back 30 yrs ago,and I learned then that the Mexican intelligentia feel that the USA OWES Mexico for all the wrongs we have done to Mexico and if millions of Mexicans cross the border to USA, it’s long overdue justice..
And we agree on another issue. There will be no follow-up to encourage assimilation and learn English. Who’s going to do it and who’s going to pay for it? And these people have advocats who will demand they don’t have to assimilate and shouldnt have to learn English.That’s why they lump illegals and legals together as ‘immigrants’.It’s very dangerous for this country to have large groups of non-English speakers beholding to those who have their own agendas.
But on this side of the border the view is that this country is not a safety value for a corrupt Mexican government as much as it is for global international capitalism,and if anyone can isolate american interests from global interest he’s more astute than I am.It’s laughable to remember how Bush 1 got in trouble for speaking positively about ‘the worldwide thousand points of light’ back in the late 80’s. That was internationalism back then and anti-american.But add ‘profit’ to the equation and then it’s good old americanism.
Yes,and everyone eventually is tagged. We can be a bigot, a racist, a liberal, or a rwer,and the list goes on.And then our views are filed under our classification.. Label…discredit..,discard is the unvariable to every argument.It’s not that there aren’t many solutions,but every solution trumps someone’s agenda.
Thank you for your response, Phillip.I enjoyed reading it and respondng and I hope others will add to this very compelling issue of the day.
Lou,
You make some good points I enjoyed reading them.What I find to be true is the immigration issue is like a lot of other issues whether national or local and in that no one pays attention until it`s too late.People wake up one day and say what the hell is going on we have a problem!
To a smaller degree people did the same thing with one of my big issues the time zone.Most didn`t bother to comment attend local or the DOT regional meeting in Jasper then when things changed they said what the hell`s going on???I tried to get my sister and her husband involved in the time zone issue while it was being decided since they would be in a split time zone situation working at Crane living in Sullivan county and they said they had no time for such things now they complain all the time about the situation at which point I say you should have taken part in the process at least you would have been heard!
The one big difference is that we will have a final decision on time zone assignment soon and there is no authority who will make a final decision on immigration/border control.
Sure, it’s irony,but it’s also a facet of a long standing debate over immigration and border control. Many want to blur illegal vs legal and want us all to see only immigrants,keeping with the American tradition of this country, made great by immigrants of all origins.
Why are the immigrants illegal and what does that mean? Who benefits and who are the losers? Hopefully others will continue with this thread and shed some light.
Lou,
The winners in the illegal vesus legal immigration debate are Editorial writers for news papers and Immigration lawyers who`s job`s and wages are not threatened by a masive influx of low skilled cheap labor.In fact many of these people probably employee some of these illegal immigrants to take care of their kids,clean their house or cut their grass!
Other winners are landlords who pack twenty and thirty people to a house so they can charge huge rent which is currently going on 30 or so miles from here in Huntingburg where a person is buying and then renting modular homes and stuffing them with these people charging a lot of money.The mayor and city council is already trying to find a way to stop this by passing a ordinance.
The biggest winner is corporations who are exploiting the illegal immigrants for finacial gain.A example of this is the meat packing industry which twenty years ago paid a average of around $19 a hour it now currently averages $9.While the plant workers wages have declined the upper tier management in this industries wages have increased almost 400 percent.
Many of the arrests at the Swift plant were also for identity theft where the illegals were not only using fake documents but American citizens social security numbers thereby stealing their identities.
The losers are tax payers and all legal citizens of this country.Hospitals are closing 81 in California alone because of emergency room care of illegals and are schools are becoming overwhelmed because teachers must spend more time trying to teach illegals English instead of working with our children.
If the amnesty that Harry Reid,President Bush and Speaker Pelosi want passes and make no mistake about it it`s a amnesty the rush will be on from South of the border millions more will be on the way.Look how well the 86 amnesty worked.What did that get us but 12 to thirty million more illegal immigrants.
There are legal ways to become a citizen of this country and illegaly crossing the border isn`t one of them.This is the most welcoming country in the world but a orderly process must be followed or you have chaos like we have now.
Let`s also not forget that most of the drugs imported into this country come from Mexico and that a recent Homeland Security Dept report stated Islamic terrorists have alresdy crossed the border and many people classified as other than Mexicans have been detained.
The reason new Majority leader Harry Reid has already said they will not fund the 700 miles of new double layered border fence that some Democrats in the Senate voted for is because it works to a degree and would slow down the flood of illegals.A 14 mile section of this type of fence in San Diego has proven effective.Crossings are way down and also the crime rate.
No it`s not fool proof but is another tool in the fight.Homeland Security chief Chertof and Harry Reid favor the “virtual fence” with sensors and cameras and high tech gadgets that do not work and have proven ineffective.
One reason we can conclude the fence would be somewhat effective is that Mexico was so much against it and was even threatening to go to the United Nations to complain.
Mexico one of the richest countries in Latin America, a country rich in oil and tourism which has about half of it`s population living in abject poverty doesn`t want anything to get in the way of the twenty billion dollars in remittances it gets from it`s citizens living in this country.This is also a country which does have it`s military on it`s border that robs and rapes and abuses other Central American illegal immigrants as they try to cross Mexicos border to get to the U.S.
Mexico is also a country where it is a felony to cross into their country illegally and is punishable by two years in jail yet their government and some of their citizens who are in this country illegally constantly are demanding rights for which they are not entitled to as they waive their Mexican flags.Remember many of these peoples favorite saying is “we didn`t cross the border the border crossed us” and believe the Southwest part of the United States belongs to Mexico.
In Stilmore Georgia for example a few months back the city passed anti-illegal immigration ordinances aginst employing or renting to these people most chose to flee town before the ordinances were challenged by the ACLU and other groups.This left the poultry processing plant almost empty but in a manor of a few weeks the plant had all the workers it needed Black,White,and Hispanic all legal citizens of this country, of course they had to pay more in wages which the CEO of this company probably did not like the report showed a picture of his mansion on the outskirts of town.And before anyone says if the labor rate in these plants raise we won`t be able to afford a steak or a chicken it`s obvious where the wages they do not pay the employees of these meat processing plants goes which is in the pocket of the upper tier management while the workers get the shaft and since these companies have had a supply of and employ illegal immigrants wages for these plants keep declining!!
As far as my Congressman (8th District) elect Ellsworth`s position on illegal immigration I spoke to him about it less than a month before the election he stated he was against amnesty or legalization and the proposed guest worker program and said he only differed from Hostettler on the issue in that we needed more work site enforcement with harsher penalties on employers of illegal immigrants.Whether he sticks to this position now that he`s been elected who knows.
I almost forgot a few more losers in this discussion the Marine back from Iraq and some of his friends who were shot and killed by a illegal immigrant who had numerous viloent crimes on his rap sheet but was out walking around free and had not been deported and the Marine back from Iraq and his fiancee who were killed by a drunk driver who was also a illegal immigrant with no licsense and had numerous drunk driving convictions but again wasn`t deported and let`s not forget the Houston police officer father of seven who after arresting a illegal immigrant and placing him in the back of his car and had not found the gun hidden on the illegal immigrant was shot in the back and killed.The illegal immigrant had previously been deported after being convicted of molesting a 12 year old girl but had crossed back into the U.S. again imagine that!
It is not the responsibility of this government to be a safety valve for a corrupt government in Mexico to ship it`s poverty too so greedy companies landlords and the like can turn a big profit and Mexico can relieve itself of it`s obligation to it`s own citizens!!!
The reason people who support strong border security and immigration by only legal means are labled racist is because the other side can not win the argument so their last defense is to resort to name calling.
Another thing that has always bothered me is the fact that their seems to be no push to make these people assimilate.Their seems to be really no need for them to learn English since everything is currently in Spanish and any call for them to learn English is met with a harsh response from the the left and some media outlets.I know the comprehensive immigration plan(amnesty) that was proposed stated the people had to learn English and pay back taxes and so forth but if anyone thinks the Federal Government could enforce this plan you`re living in fantasy land!
Phillip,
You have some of the same concerns I have. First there’s rampant exploitation for cheap labor. Anyone ‘illegal’ isnt going to go to the local public defender to sue for legal rights,being classified illegal himself.
And it’s not even what to do with 12 million immigrants with ill-defined legality. We assume they stay .We can’t deport who we can’t identify,and who’s going to do it?But what procedures can we set up now that are predictable and fair for future in-coming people?
And what you say is true about Mexican govt having an attitude toward USA.It’s part of their campaign speeches. I lived in Mexico and went to school in Mexico City back 30 yrs ago,and I learned then that the Mexican intelligentia feel that the USA OWES Mexico for all the wrongs we have done to Mexico and if millions of Mexicans cross the border to USA, it’s long overdue justice..
And we agree on another issue. There will be no follow-up to encourage assimilation and learn English. Who’s going to do it and who’s going to pay for it? And these people have advocats who will demand they don’t have to assimilate and shouldnt have to learn English.That’s why they lump illegals and legals together as ‘immigrants’.It’s very dangerous for this country to have large groups of non-English speakers beholding to those who have their own agendas.
But on this side of the border the view is that this country is not a safety value for a corrupt Mexican government as much as it is for global international capitalism,and if anyone can isolate american interests from global interest he’s more astute than I am.It’s laughable to remember how Bush 1 got in trouble for speaking positively about ‘the worldwide thousand points of light’ back in the late 80’s. That was internationalism back then and anti-american.But add ‘profit’ to the equation and then it’s good old americanism.
Yes,and everyone eventually is tagged. We can be a bigot, a racist, a liberal, or a rwer,and the list goes on.And then our views are filed under our classification.. Label…discredit..,discard is the unvariable to every argument.It’s not that there aren’t many solutions,but every solution trumps someone’s agenda.
Thank you for your response, Phillip.I enjoyed reading it and respondng and I hope others will add to this very compelling issue of the day.
Lou,
You make some good points I enjoyed reading them.What I find to be true is the immigration issue is like a lot of other issues whether national or local and in that no one pays attention until it`s too late.People wake up one day and say what the hell is going on we have a problem!
To a smaller degree people did the same thing with one of my big issues the time zone.Most didn`t bother to comment attend local or the DOT regional meeting in Jasper then when things changed they said what the hell`s going on???I tried to get my sister and her husband involved in the time zone issue while it was being decided since they would be in a split time zone situation working at Crane living in Sullivan county and they said they had no time for such things now they complain all the time about the situation at which point I say you should have taken part in the process at least you would have been heard!
The one big difference is that we will have a final decision on time zone assignment soon and there is no authority who will make a final decision on immigration/border control.
I agree with you on that, Lou. I seems that no one pays attention until it’s too late.