Wow, it’s been hot out there. Like, really hot. But that’s just Indiana for you. I probably can’t blame it on the politicians. But I can point out that Daylight Saving Time arranges the day such that the heat of the day affects us more. That “extra” hour of light also means an extra hour of heat. Since the sun doesn’t go down until later, the heat also doesn’t dissipate until later.
Um, Doug, you do realize that DST has nothing to do with the heat. The only difference is the time of day. Instead of being hot at 8:00 a.m., it would be the same hot at 7:00 a.m. Just sayin’.
BTW, I did a triathlon on Saturday and it was already 75 degrees and heat rising at 6:00 a.m. as I strapped my bike on the rack. With the humidity we’ve been having, I was thankful we didn’t have that extra hour in the morning — it would have been unsafe.
Likewise, instead of being cool by 7 or 8 in the evening under DST, it doesn’t cool down *significantly* until 8 or 9pm, sometimes even later. We all still have to go to work and school at the same time yet we may have to run our air conditioners or fans until later in the evening. I believe that is what Doug meant, not that DST in and of itself makes the temperature higher. :)
Yeah, Pila caught what I was trying to say. DST doesn’t give us light or heat or anything else, it just rearranges the relationship of our schedules to those things — an “extra” hour of darkness in the morning; an “extra” hour of heat in the night.
I prefer lighter mornings and cooler nights. Others prefer cooler mornings and more light in the evening. I would (and have) argue that the non-DST arrangement where the sun is closer to directly overhead at noon is the more natural and, therefore, the one to which our biological clocks are more accustomed. But I don’t have any research to back me up, so for me it’s just conjecture. I think the later sunlight and heat lasting late into the night contributes to sleep deprivation. And, of course, as a father of young children, I have to contend with that as well.
A triathlon in this weather!?
Talk about mad dogs and Englishmen…
I would suggest that there exists a substantial body of literature about the ill effects of working night shifts and how light keys physiological changes (which is why it is so hard to get up before daybreak) under the term “circadian rhythem”.
I have made that very point many times that the last thing we need around here is a extra hour of light at the end of the day it is hot and humid enough without adding another hour at the end of the day!!Thankfully I reside in the Central time zone for now the natural time zone for this state.True noon on a sun dial put out by a science teacher in Knox county came at 11:50 am CDT.I wonder how many EDT people will be out this evening doing all the things they say they dont have time to do if they were on Central time which they technically obseved this time of year for over 30 years??I guess it`s just a personal preference.
True noon should have occurred about 12:50 p.m. CDT not 11:50 am. But I agree with the sentiment. The Naval Observatory gave the following figures for Washington, Indiana for today.
The following information is provided for Washington, Daviess County, Indiana (longitude W87.2, latitude N38.7):
Monday
31 July 2006 Central Daylight Time
SUN
Begin civil twilight 5:20 a.m.
Sunrise 5:49 a.m.
Sun transit 12:55 p.m.
Sunset 8:00 p.m.
End civil twilight 8:30 p.m.
For Terre Haute on the other hand:
The following information is provided for Terre Haute, Vigo County, Indiana (longitude W87.4, latitude N39.5):
Monday
31 July 2006 Eastern Daylight Time
SUN
Begin civil twilight 6:18 a.m.
Sunrise 6:48 a.m.
Sun transit 1:56 p.m.
Sunset 9:03 p.m.
End civil twilight 9:33 p.m.
Noon at two in the afternoon? Sunrise pushing 7 am (in July no less!) with the sunset still coming after 9? I don’t think many people live this way.
The experiment with the sun dial I mentioned was done a few months ago when they were fighting about the time in Knox county as reported by the Vincennes Sun Commercial I should have mentioned that.
Yes, it’s true. Hoosiers are MAD for this topic. Let’s just realize that this is NOT going to change and move on. The weather this July has been weird to say the least — more days of sustained rain.. and I’ve even seen strong sunshine and hard rain at the same time three days this month alone in Lafayette.
BUT.. even if we proved we should be on CDT.. I doubt the federal government EVER wants to hear from Indiana again.
If we keep beating a dead horse.. it doesn’t mean it will suddenly spring to life.
I’d recommend repealing DST for Indiana as superior to moving to Central Time. Central Time has the disadvantage of the 4:30 sunsets in the winter. Year ’round Eastern Standard Time (or Central Daylight Time, if you prefer) was, in my opinion, an excellent way of regulating Indiana’s time, given its geographic location and the available sunlight. No 4:30 sunsets, but also no 10 pm sunsets. Noon came at about 12:00. Mornings were lighter and the evenings were cooler.
But, there is a fair amount of preference involved with that. The flip side is earlier sunsets and hotter mornings.
The reason to keep beating the dead horse is to make sure that voters who are so inclined will penalize politicians who decided to mess with something that wasn’t broken; and particularly for doing so in a half-assed way by imposing DST on the whole state and then just punting away the inextricably linked question of time zones. I’m reasonably confident that the Feds would have honored a time zone request specified by the Governor and General Assembly.
At worst, the Feds would have at least considered a request by the State with respect to time zones on its own terms rather than ginning up that ad hoc abomination requiring counties to guess at what other counties might be doing when deciding whether to make a request.
Differences of opinion are certainly understandable on these issues, but my hackles go up when somebody says something along the lines of “get over it.” Pro-DST advocates didn’t “get over it” for the 30+ years they kept bringing DST legislation to the table, and this year they got it passed by one vote, only by twisting arms, getting Troy Woodruff to recant his promise to his constituents, and holding the voting open long beyond that which is customary in order to get some legislators to flip. So, Standard Time advocates look pretty meek if they didn’t see what they could do to get Indiana back on Standard Time.
I definitely would prefer more light during the morning and cooler evenings–like things were just a year ago–sigh! I haven’t had a good night’s sleep since March 31st! :(
Arizona people have more sense than the rest of us. They don’t observe daylight shifting time because an early sunset is a blessing during their hot summers. Think of the people who don’t have air conditioning. Double daylight time makes it impossible for them to get to bed before 11 pm. Maybe the Chamber thinks fan and air conditioner sales are good for the economy but it certainly puts to rest their claims for energy savings.
Braingirl what are you doing riding your bike in the morning? Don’t you know the reason God gave us an extra hour of light in the evening this year was for us to use it for our leisure activities such as bike riding, golf, and evening walks? Get with the program. Are you a blonde?
Jim-
I would guess braingirl spent much her day at this triathlon, which is a perfect example of the sort of thing that can be scheduled based on when the sun rises. Put another way, she in effect claimed that DST allowed the participants to start earlier, when in fact this sort of thing is a one time a year event the start time of which can be easily adjusted. The Indy 500 has done exactly this for decades as the time we have observed has shifted around.
I’d much rather have a hot drive home in the afternoon than a miserable, hot drive to work. Getting all sweaty first thing in the morning isn’t my idea of a great way to start a day.
Oh, and Jim…
Arizona people have more sense than the rest of us. They don’t observe daylight shifting time because an early sunset is a blessing during their hot summers.
They also have no grass to mow and temperatures that make us look like pussies for complaining about our heat. Their reasoning is also two fold: The hiways in Arizona are primarily built and repaired after dark (it’s dangerous and difficult to work in that kind of heat and the materials don’t work well in those conditions).
It’s hot. It’s like Africa hot. Tarzan couldn’t take this kind of hot. Also, as a lifelong foe of DST, I agree with Doug. Plus, I want to see Woodruff go down because I can’t stand him. So double bonus if the voters beat him over breaking his solemn (and it was solemn) promise to his constituents. (No matter if you were for or agin’, breaking promises to your constituents is bad. It’s the sign of a novice politician – you never make that kind of promise if you know the leadership is going to lean hard on you to change your vote.)
As someone who grew up in Union City, Ohio, (a town divided for 35 years by time zones), I have been amused by all the rhetoric about time zones since the Indiana Legislature enacted DST last year. I lived in Central Indiana for about 19 years and got used to not setting the clocks ahead after growing up and living just across the state line in Ohio until I graduated from high school and began studies at Ball State in Muncie. As an Ohio native (by 1 mile) I was used to setting the clocks ahead every spring and setting them back in the fall and it was a running joke in Union City about what time a particular business was on. You would not believe the confusion that existed in Union City regarding the time split, most of the industrial businesses in Union City, Indiana at that time had many of their employees who lived in Ohio so in order to accomodate the employees who lived in Ohio they observed DST, to further complicate things, most of the downtown commercial district was on the Indiana side of town and most of the businesses there observed year around EST. I can understand as someone who has been on both sides of the time split advantages and disadvantages of each, but it’s too bad the time zone legislation in Indiana turned into a political football. All I can say is that DST foes need to look at a map of the United States and realize Indiana was a time peninsula. I live in Louisville, KY now, where EDT is observed, and if you look North and South from Indiana you will see that almost all of Michigan and half of Kentucky is in the Eastern Time Zone, and running North to South EDT makes sense for most of Indiana. It’s interesting that if a Democratic governor had pushed for this we would be hearing an entirely different political spin. I am an Independent voter, I am no longer a native of Indiana, but it’s interesting to see how politicians with a political agenda, are trying to polarize the electorate with this issue. DST foes might want to try to get Michigan and Kentucky to repeal DST also, instead of trashing Troy Woodruff.
Sorry for the confusion on my references to no longer being a native of Indiana. Actually I am an Indiana native (I was born in Winchester, Indiana but grew up in Union City, Ohio, about 11 miles east of Winchester, and I have many relatives who still live in Winchester, Union City, and Greenville, Ohio).
I am an optimist. I will not rest(literally) until DST or Eastern time is repealed. Eastern/Republican time for Indiana is illegitimate-Plain and simple. The only way this is going to happen is to get rid of the Republicans in the House and Senate that sold out their constituents to the special interest groups. And of course dumping “Bait and Switch Mitch”- that deceitful little bastard that touted central time when he was campaigning but really wanted eastern all along.
I find it interesting that FOX 28 (Elkhart affiliate) who stood to gain financially by being placed in this illegitimate time zone, is now running ads saying “tired of staying up past 11 try Fox 28 news at 10. Michiana’s only 10 o’ clock news. Tune in and turn in at your time. An hour can make a difference.” Said station ran an on air editorial urging St. Joe county to drop their petition for central time on the day that the county commissioners met to try to come to a consensus on the issue. If this isn’t conflict of interest I don’t know what is.
We all know the end results. The three Elkhart commissioners who didn’t bother asking their constituents what they wanted wound up effectively deciding the issue for Elkhart,ST. JOE,and Marshall county.
As I said before I will not rest until this situation is rectified.
Just, fwiw, Unioncity Native – I was born and raised in Richmond. So I’m familiar with the environment of which you speak. As for Troy Woodruff v. Kentucky and Michigan, I guess I’d just say “first things first.” Kentucky and Michigan didn’t make any promises to Indiana voters.
As for your assertion that I’d be singing a different tune if a Democratic Governor had ramrodded DST down our throats, I’ll just say that you are incorrect at least insofar as I am concerned. Obviously, I can’t speak for others.
Union City is divided by a state line but has not been separated by a time zone boundary line since July 1961. As for Louisville, it was transferred from the central to the eastern zone about the same period that Indiana was cut in half by the federal government. Time zone boundaries are very contentious things that create problems and hardships wherever they are placed. They are also very rare. There are only 3 boundary lines in the lower 48 states and 24 in the whole world. The ICC, recognizing the problems created by these man-made boundaries, sought to unite divided states such as Ohio and Georgia and in states like Kentucky and Tennessee they placed the lines in sparsely populated areas.
Every square foot of Indiana is located in the Central Standard Time Zone as defined by the international agreement that established the global time zone system. Indiana remains to this day the only state in the nation that while being located entirely in one zone was divided into two zones by the federal government. The “standard†boundary line between the Eastern and Central zones is located east of Columbus, Ohio about 135 miles from Richmond, 200 miles from Indianapolis, and 280 miles from Terre Haute.
My native Daviess County was recently restored to the central zone and Greene County 2 miles north of where I was born remains in the eastern zone. This has created all kinds of unnecessary problems. It is very cruel to place a boundary at a county line. It makes more sense to move the line back to the Ohio/Indiana border where it was before 1961. The people of Indiana have not been treated fairly. At no time, not in 1960, not in 2005, were the people consulted. No candidate for state office campaigned for Eastern Daylight Time.
It would be best for Indiana and the nation as a whole if Indiana was unified and observed one time. That time should be Central Standard Time because it is not only our natural zone but it brings as closer to the rest of the country. Eastern Time with its three hour time differential separates us more and brings with it 8+ AM sunrises that upsets our daily life patterns and increases the risks for all that must commute on dark winter mornings.
To Unioncitynative-
Who is the one living on a peninsula? Doesn’t that depend on the scale? I could as easily say that Louisville was a time peninsula between Indiana and Tennessee, and can now say that Terre Haute and Lafayette are in a time peninsula between Evansville and Valparaiso.
“Peninsula or not” it is Indiana’s proximity to Chicago and to the Chicago area regional economy that is the dominant outside factor driving Indiana’s time zone debate. At least one major Indiana city currently in the Eastern Time zone, South Bend, would benefit greatly from being in sync with Chicago. Going Central would be a boost for Terre Haute and Lafayette, and it wouldn’t hurt most of the rest of us, excluding New Albany.
Louisville, Cincinnati, Dayton, Union City and, for that matter, Indianapolis, are simply pygmies compared to Chicago. While Louisville and Cincinnati and I suppose even Union City have some regional pull, linking most of Indiana to these communities only comes at the cost of a major split in the state leaving over 20% State’s population in the Central Time Zone. When the DOT realizes that South Bend and Elkhart fit better with Chicago based on South Bend’s ties to Chicago rather than Elkhart’s ties to Lagrange, we can expect that percentage to grow. A tidy time zone map, and a divided state, is a stiff a price to pay to please those residents of Michigan, Ohio and Kentucky who live close to our borders.
As for being partisan, speaking for myself, I was a pretty partisan “McCain†Republican myself until Bush II and Daniels.
Hi Doug, If I implied that you were directing a partisan spin I am sorry. That was not my intent at all, all I was saying was that it took a tremendous amount of political courage for Troy Woodruff to vote as he did, regardless of the political ramifications, Rep. Tiny Adams of Muncie (now deceased) was a Democrat who was an EDT proponent. I guess the time debate in Indiana is a personal preference anyway and those who like EDT like it and those who don’t like it don’t. Just a matter of personal preference. As far as Jim’s assertion that Union City hasn’t been divided by time since 1961, that is incorrect. Union City was on the same time in the winter and on a different time in the summer from 1971 until this year. I realize that no matter where the time line is drawn, it is bound to irritate someone. I think there are 10 states including Indiana (11 if you count the Indian reservations in Arizona that observe DST, although the rest of Arizona does not) that are divided by time zone boundaries, Oregon, Idaho, North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Florida. Of course those time zone boundaries are drawn for the most part in sparsely populated areas, and in Indiana it is hard to find a sparsely populated area, at least in terms of a metro area. I have heard Jim’s other assertion that the Eastern/Central boundary should be located east of Columbus, Ohio mentioned other places also, I am not disputing that, sounds like all of Michigan and most of Kentucky should be Central also. I don’t know why the time zone boundary between Eastern and Central was moved west. It would be difficult to divide Ohio though, unless the time zone boundary was east of the Columbus, Ohio metro area. Perhaps if Columbus, Dayton, Cincinnati, and Toledo and all of Michigan were central and a dividing line could be established in eastern Ohio, keeping Cleveland eastern, that might work. I disagree with Paul’s assertion that Louisville, Dayton, and Indianapolis are pygmies. Union City though is a small rural community, it has ties though to Muncie, Richmond, and Dayton. We have had our problems here in Kentucky also with the merit hiring scandal and the ill conceived “Tax Modernization Act” passed in 2005 and modified in 2006 during a special session. I am a CPA, and the act passed last year was a fiasco, thankfully it was amended this year.
Sorry, I forgot to include Cincinnati that Paul asserted was in the “pygmy” group. Cincinnatians aren’t pygmies.
My assertion was that the aforementioned cities were pygmies compared to Chicago. Chicago’s metro population is about 50% greater than the population for the entire state of Indiana. The Indianapolis metro area has about 15% of the population of Chicago’s, hence calling Indy a pygmy may be generous. Pygmies generally have far more than 15% of the body mass of members of the general population.
Point well taken Paul, I realize Chicago is a major midwestern city and that they have an economic influence far beyond Cook County, Illinois. It’s interesting though, I have some relatives who live in Mishawaka, Indiana and Niles, Michigan (about 11 miles from Mishawaka) who could care less about Chicago (90 miles away) even though they are big Cubs and Bears fans and go to many Chicago events, but care deeply about commuting to jobs in South Bend (about 10 miles away). It has always been a pain for them, and they like the South Bend and Southwest Michigan area being on the same time now year around. It guess it’s similar to what I experienced growing up in Union City, being on the Indiana/Ohio state line. I like your point though, perhaps it is time to move beyond Indiana partisan politics, and perhaps move to a regional consortium, composed of Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, and Kentucky legisislators. (It would probably be a difficult task, but maybe not impossible to move the Eastern/Central boundary back where it belongs) instead of just trashing Republicans/Democrats).
There is just one problem with the issue of Indiana and Michigan being on the same time year round. Michigan had a chance to vote on which time zone they wanted to be in, and as a result of the Detroit vote, eastern time was chosen. Indiana voters didn’t have a choice ( no time zone referendum). And if you live in one state and work in another , thats your choice, and live with the consequences of that choice. Otherwise move into the state where you work.
Mitch Daniels interfered with the rights and wishes of hoosiers, and also broke the law (i.e. the daylight savings time bill), when he failed to honor the wishes of county executives wishing to change time zones (i.e St. Joseph, Marshall and Fulton counties). To suggest that we just move on and its not going to change is a defeatist attitude, and is what many of the Republican politicians and the Chamber of Commerce wants you to do. When the World Trade Center was hit by those planes, should we just say, “oh well it happened, let’s just move on.” or when Pearl Harbor was bombed, did our fathers say “Oh, let’s just move on.” I think to underestimate the resolve of hoosiers about the issue of daylight savings time, and the broader picture of letting politicians run our lives, is a big mistake. To put children in harms way of morning traffic as a result of darkness (which is now going to occur right from the very start of school), is one of the worst forms of child abuse. It is totally unnecessary. And for what, so that some corporate employees can make sure and know what time everyone is on. That’s a poor excuse for subjecting children to an increased risk of injury or death. If a corporate employee had brain one in their head, they would simply make a courtesy call the day before the meeting to coordinate what time each person was on and what time ( and in which time zone) the meeting would be. I do it all the time, and I run three businesses.
At the daylight savings time hearings in Indianapolis (and again remember that the purpose of daylight savings time is to conserve energy), I told the politicians that an air conditioner uses a lot more energy than a light bulb, and we’re going to have to use lights in the morning now in August to get the children off to school.
As a result of it being lighter out later, people are having a hard time getting to bed and sleep when they normally do. As a result, and this is a culmulative effect, the loss of sleep day after day catches up with people to the point by the end of the summer, they are just plain worn out. I wonder how worker productivity in Indiana is this summer? I would predict a significant reduction.
There are many businesses who have been significantly hurt from daylight savings time. Most notably the sit down restaurants, who use to be busy at 6:30 to 7:00 in the summer. Not this summer. Its simply too late by the time everyone gets done working outside to go out to eat. And if they do, what effect will this have on their health in terms of weight gain (i.e. eating right before you go to bed).
I looked at the golf courses this summer, and they have not had a significant increase in business as a result of daylight savings time. And a comparison to last year may in fact show they are being hurt, because people like to get up and go out and play a round of golf before it gets hot outside(i.e tee time at 6:00 AM)(I know this because I grew up and worked on a golf course for 20 years). Well they can’t do that now because it doesn’t get light until almost 7 AM.
As for Troy Woodruff (who by the way as a result of his vote on daylight savings time, his wife got an unadvertised job working for the INDOT at $42000), represents what needs to be rectified this November. Whether its Troy Woodruff, Steve Heim, Jackie Walorski, or a host of other representatives who voted Mitch Daniel’s way, and didn’t represent the wishes of their constituents, its up to the hoosier voters to rise up and let our voices be heard loudly. Hoosiersforcentraltime.com is going to post on the website a “Do Not Vote,” list of those politicians that were resposible for this whole mess. The theme of this years campaign should be “It’s About Time.” Time to vote on new representation, and time to repeal daylight savings time, adn leave our time alone.
And for the corporate employees who miss meeting because they don’t know what time it is, try using the brain that God gave you for once. Think of the alternative of a child that is killed as a result of the darkness of morning because a driver didn’t see him or her.
Let’s hope and pray that doesn’t happen, and lets get out and do the job this November that needs to be done.
A small addition to David Kinney’s comments. Technically what Michigan voted on in its referenda was DST, not time zone preference. In 1966 Michigan voted DST down. In 1970 DST won, carried as David said, on the Detroit area/Flint vote. Despite complaints in western Michigan, particularly the Grand Rapids area, DST was never voted on again. The only other lasting response was that a handful of extreme western counties in the UP petitioned for and were moved to the Central Time Zone. As always seems to be the case, as soon as the DST agitators win they declare the issue “settled”. The Chamber seems to live by the motto “What’s ours is ours, what’s yours is up for grabs”.
It would probably be impossible to demonstrate a connection, but I have wondered if the Detroit riots of 1967 were a boost for DST. Color TV was just becoming wide spread and night time footage of burning buildings and cars was so much more dramatic than daytime footage of the same thing. That too would have fitted with the “We’ll scare people with darkness tactic” DST supporters use.
As an aside, driving into work this morning (I have given up walking this week on account of the heat) I heard a former native of Calcutta, India talking about how he dreaded summer, but, lacking air conditioning, how the summer heat brought people out of their cramped apartments and on to the street at night where they gathered and talked. The commentator saw this as combating loneliness. Jane Jacobs made a similar point in her book “The Death and Life of Great American Cities”. Air conditioning, television, the construction of houses without front porches, all have combined to effect a slow withering of community life. Much of this community life, at least in the summer, happened after sunset. In Jacobs’ recollection this was true not only in rural areas, where it was to be expected, but in urban areas, which was her focus.
I hardly expect air conditioning to disappear, but the “Seize the Daylight” mentality of many of the DST supporters seems to me to fit into an anti-communitarian mind set. The emphasis of so much of their propaganda is on the opportunity for (ever more) outdoor sports afforded by DST. Sports have their place, but there is also a place for outdoor concerts, plays, dances and fairs, which, come the dog days of summer, are far more comfortable for the audience and participants after the sun has gone down. And culture is the bedrock of civilization.
One of the unsolved mysteries about Indiana’s 1957 time line zone map was why it was divided as it would be later after 1960, and why it lasted only one year,and then the OH/IN border again became the time line til the 60’s .But I do remember Cincinnati being on perpetual EST in the 50’s and that is important.There was a grassroots effort in Indiana in late 50s to put eastern Indiana counties in sync with Ohio and at first it was a choice by staying on CDT. The Legislature wanted to avoid local homerule ,so they moved these counties to ET, and at that time, DST was a local option so that meant all of Eastern Indiana would be in sync with bordering Ohio 12 months of the year.Then Ohio adopted EDT somewhere around 1960 and Louisville came along so as to be same time as Cincinnati, . So suddenly Indiana was NOT the same time as the bordering areas to the east.Michigan tried to go the same time as Indiana about 1970 or 71 by adopting EDT to be in sync with Indiana ,but in the meantime Indiana went back to EST in summer and thereby Indiana was out of sync again. Indiana was a time ‘no mans land’ til last April 2.( one point of view anyway).My point is there must be strong ties between eastern Indiana and bordering Michigan and Ohio and Kentucky.There’s been a constant push for time unity. Chicago’s influence, I think, is greatly exaggerated. Time is a local commuting issue. I’m one of those who maintains that DST in Chicago and DST in South Bend have united the two areas in time.Those areas who have daily commuting to Chicago are on CT ,always have been and always be .
DST was adopted mainly in this country during ww1 and ww2,but it was vastly unpopular and was a local issue til the The Uniform Time Act of 1966. Therefore discussing time zone divisions with the absence DST is very misleading.
I live now with ET now but I live near the East Coast,so traveling to Indiana lets me stay in the same time zone,so no problem I thought! I found I don’t like EDT actually (in Indiana) and I’m one of those who thought it wouldn’t matter,because it doesn’t matter in principle,or in Florida or in Philadelphia.If in Indiana the sun rose about 15 minutes earlier and sat 15 minutes earlier I don’t think the time would bother me.The day seems noticeably ‘off-centered’. I think this is the only issue with DST ,but maybe a significant one.So for CT advocats in future to campaign for statewide CT,they will have to ‘underwhelm’ their opponents,if they’re honest.It’s those first and last 15 minutes that’s the problem and those opposed will just laugh.There is no other reason to go to CT ( this is just my opinion of course).
I can second Doug: I grew up in and still live in Richmond. Most people I know, not all by any means, worked around the time issue with Ohio with no problems when we were on year-round EST. As for people missing meetings and what not, my guess is that it happened more often for people (perhaps mostly in Indy ;-)) who only occasionally had to deal with people in different time zones. Those of us who had to deal with the time zone difference with Ohio every day adjusted pretty well, for the most part. I don’t know why Union City had so many problems, however. Their problems should not be made out to be universal for the eastern part of Indiana.
Most people I’ve talked to this year really hate being on EDT. The most frequent complaints I hear are about the late sunrises and sunsets and how that has messed with sleep.
Just a note, the sunrise in Miami, Atlanta, and Knoxville, which all are techinically in the Eastern Time Zone, is later than the sunrise currently in Indiana.
“Just a note, the sunrise in Miami, Atlanta, and Knoxville, which all are techinically in the Eastern Time Zone, is later than the sunrise currently in Indiana.”
Josh, I do believe that is an impossibility. Since Mitch and his boys illegitimately put us in the eastern time zone we have the latest sunrises and sunsets in the nation. If you live west of a particular city and you both observe the same time zone the western most city can NOT have a sunrise or sunset earlier than the eastern city. And I do believe all the cities that you mention are east of Indiana.
Actually it’s funny you mention Miami. Do you realize the Florida panhandle (western tip) is in the Central time zone? I don’t know about you but I and most people consider Florida an east coast state. Kinda puts the ridiculousness of Indiana’s current time zone debacle to the forefront.
Doug – You get more responses on this subject than any other. Who says this issue is dead? Which posting holds the record for the most responses? Thank you for providing us a forum to discuss this and other issues.
Josh is right. Miami, Atlanta, and Knoxville sunrises are approx. the same as Indianapolis’s for this date. Knoxville at 83.9 deg w longitude and Atlanta at 84.4 deg w. longitude are technically in the Central Standard Time Zone but they have been transferred to the eastern zone for state unity reasons.
When the period of daylight shifting time is extended next year, there will be 5 months, Oct, Nov, Dec, Jan and possibily Mar, that Indiana will have some days with sunrises later than 8. The latest sunrises for Knoxville are 7:54 Oct 28 and 7:45 Jan. 2-11; for Atlanta 7:53 Oct 28 and 7:43 Jan 1-15; for Miami 7:27 Oct 28 and 7:09 Jan 5-20.
Miami, Atlanta and Knoxville, being to the south of Indiana all have shorter periods of daylight than experienced in Indiana during summer (particularly early summer). So despite Indiana being to the west of all of these cities it is possible for sunrise to occur in those cities later than in parts of Indiana. This is balanced though by much later sunsets in Indiana. For today, 2 August, sunrise was 4 minutes later in Miami and 6 minutes later in Atlanta than it occurred in Indianapolis. Sunrise came at the same time in Knoxville and Indy. Sunset this evening will occur 51 minutes later in Indy than in Miami, 20 minutes later in Indy than in Atlanta and 17 minutes later in Indy than in Knoxville. (All figures from the U.S. Naval Observatory).
As we get closer to fall though our sunrises will move to later times here than occur in the aforementioned cities. Sunrise will come at the same time in Indy and Atlanta on 28 August. Indy and Miami will match by 10 August. By 25 October sunrise in Miami will be at 0725, while in Indianapolis it will be at 805. With the extension of DST into November the results will become more extreme. Sunrise in Indy could potentially come as late as 0820.
There are parts of rural North Dakota and Michigan’s UP (Marquette) where the sunrise/sunset times are more extreme than Indiana. On the other hand though, we wouldn’t be particularly out of norms being in the Central time zone. The earliest sunsets (the usual complaint about CTZ in Indiana) would be about the same in Fort Wayne as in Boston or Green Bay, in part because those cities are a little further north.
bleah. Political courage would have been refusing Mitch Daniels’ arm-twisting and representing his constituency, which did not want DST. If he promised them he’d vote against it, and he did not, he needs to face the music at the ballot box.
(Ignore the criminally bad use of mixed metaphors there.)
Moreover, I’d say that the phrase “parisan politics” is not apt – DST is not a D or R issue, it’s an economic and georgraphical one. It only became an R issue when this governor rammed it through, and in such a way as to guarantee one specific outcome.
Be that as it may, I’m now in a state that observes DST, and moving to another state that observes DST, so one day I really do need how to reset the clock in my car.
Here is an interesting link for those who want to see graphically how sunrises and sunsets fall according to latitude. In summer Miami and Chicago have similar time sunrises for example.The graph is accurate on a daily basis.
http://www.time.gov/timezone.cgi?Eastern/d/-5/java
You all have some really valid points. Jim is absolutely right that this issue is far from dead. I don’t live in Indiana anymore and won’t be eligible to vote on any of the races there and the time zone debate really doesn’t affect me. Due to my large family though and the fact that I still have many relatives who live in affected areas, (and who are all highly opinionated like those of us who discuss this issue, it is unlikely to go away anytime soon, regardless of whether you are Pro EDT, Con EDT, or neutral). It’s nice to chat with Richmond natives, Doug and Pila, just as an aside (removed from the time zone debate), if you ever get up to Greenville, Ohio, go and have a Maidrite. I grew up in Union City, Ohio and was practically weaned on those burgers. (I have to admit I am predudiced on Maidrites, having grown up in Darke County, Ohio). These burgers are great. I was in Greenville about 2 1/2 weeks ago for a family funeral and got 3 dozen to bring back to Louisville. If you decide to get some Maidrites to go, ask for them on cold buns, they freeze well. Freeze them, and microwave 2 for about 90 seconds. They are great! They are great with a cold beer, (especially today, it was 96 in Louisville today).
A question for David Kinney. Over a month ago the Star had an article telling us how everyone likes DST. They interviewed a drive in owner who said that business was better than expected and DST hadn’t hurt attendance. How has it affected your business?
Lou – Good to hear from you again. You sure get around. That’s good. A moving target is harder to hit.
I did some research last year on Indiana’s time zone history and wrote an article basically to collect my thoughts and make some arguments that could be used at a hearing. There was enough political intrigue to fill a book. Here is a short synopsis. Much of the reasoning behind the great divide is still a mystery but maybe this will fill in a few voids.
How we became a divided state is one of the more interesting stories in our history. In the late 1950s, a group lobbied the General Assembly to put part of Indiana on Central Daylight Time the year round. Their efforts were frustrated because a 1956 referendum showed this would be very unpopular. The group then petitioned the Interstate Commerce Commission to be included in hearings that were to be held for Kentucky and Tennessee.
Hearings were held early in 1960. At the conclusion of the hearing, the examiner, Thomas Pyne, stated he was going to recommend Indiana remain on Central Time. Therefore it surprised almost everyone when a year and half later the ICC announced that it was moving 43 of Indiana’s 92 counties into the Eastern Zone. It was obvious intense lobbying had taken place outside of the hearing.
The ICC announcement in July 1961 was met with deafening silence. It was reported on the inside pages of the evening paper. One would think a ruling this significant and historical deserved a headline. No elected official came forward to claim credit. It was as if the proponents realized it was best to let the deed be done quietly, very quietly. Their discretion was warranted. The 1956 general referendum had disclosed the voters favored Central Time over Eastern Time by a wide margin. What this action in effect did was place Eastern Indiana on Central Daylight Time the year round. It had no immediate consequence. Clocks did not need to be changed as most of Indiana was already on Central Daylight Time. Some even welcome not having to change their clocks in the fall and the following spring. Assurances were given that Indiana would never be asked to observe Eastern Daylight Time. In fact, Indiana received a special exemption from a federal law enacted in 1973 that mandated the states to go on daylight time year round as a conservation measure during an energy crisis.
The newspaper article that announced the change did not mention what the ICC’s rationale was for the action. The proponents believed it would benefit Indiana’s economy to be on the same time as Ohio. It was also rumored that the broadcast industry lobbied very hard for the change. The change never did live up to anyone’s expectations.
A short time later Ohio started to observe Eastern Daylight Time. This left Ohio and Indiana on the same time only during the winter months.
The empirical evidence does not show that Indiana’s economy improved after the state was divided. Before 1961 Indiana was a boom state. People migrated to Indiana by the 10s of thousands each year for the high paying jobs available. They could earn more in a month than they could in a year at home. It was like a modern day gold rush. They went to work for companies such as Chevrolet, Chrysler, Ford, Cummins, Allisons, Delco, IBM, RCA, General Electric, Western Electric, Westinghouse, Eli Lilly, Otis Elevator, U.S. Steel, Bethlehem Steel, to name a few. It would be unfair to blame the current lower profiles of some of these companies on Eastern Time. But it does mean that Central Time was not a hindrance for them to make very large investments in the state in the first place
Another indicator that the economy didn’t improve relative to the rest of the nation is since 1961 Indiana has lost two Congressional Seats and two Electoral Votes because of reapportionment. The burden of proof that Eastern Time improves the economy falls to its advocates. Hard data would be helpful.
In 1961 the three major networks’ broadcasts were still in black and white. There were some advantages for the local stations to be on the same time as their feeds from the east as the available technology made delayed broadcasting difficult. Today with modern technology, and 24 hours news and sports on the cable and satellite systems, these reasons are no longer valid. There is some evidence that the networks are basing their live broadcasts on Central Time to attract a wider national audience. Monday Night Football which starts at 9 pm EST and 8 pm CST is the best example of this trend.
First for those interested in sunrise times: November 3, 2007 (welcome to extended DST)
Miami 7:30 AM
Atlanta 7:58
Knoxville 8:00
Indianapolis 8:15
Terre Haute 8:19
and with a weak sun angle the January 3 sunrises which are 9 minutes earlier than above for the Indiana cities will bring useful daylight beyond 9 AM on those numerous cloudy January mornings.
On another aspect of this topic. Louisville went on Eastern time to be with Cincinnati, in 1961. This is probably true. The problem is the nation is dynamic and people are always moving. Today the more dynamic city lies about 150 miles south of Louisville in the Central Time Zone. In 1961 Nashville was a sleepy town of 171,000, Cincinnati had 503,000. Today Cincinnati is down to 317,361 (2003) and Nashville (2005) is 575,261. Metro wise it is a little less stark, but still Nashville has gained significantly on Cincinnati and blown by Louisville The point is with a PMSA growth rate of 13.2% to Louisville,s slightly over 4% and Cincinnati’s slightly over 5%, and places near Nashville such as Bowling Green growing at 19%, Louisville may start looking south to the future. We can’t constantly be moving time lines every time this happens. The 1961 line worked, it did not need to be fixed. Nor did perpetual EST which was innovative not backward. In 2007 you would have had the 1961 time line for almost 8 months of the year with perpetual EST.
Jim brings out one constant in the TZ/DST legislation. It’s always been political and it’s always been underhanded,with deals going down other than in the light of day,and we’re entirely sure who wanted what.
I remember Rep.Woodruff, the much maligned rep. from Washington, IN,who changed his vote to give DST a victory explaining his change of mind at the time. He was quoted as saying he was tired of the politics.There were DEMS in Lake County voting against DST for those who lived in the ETZ,although DST in the CTZ was already assured and not in danger of being rescinded.He saw it as a political manoeuvre against the Republicans and Gov Daniels.. So at least give the guy credit for that!Maybe he did think he was taking the high ground over politics.
Another interesting bit of history is that Congress voted to make the railroad time zones offical for the general public only in 1918.I have found references in this blog at times about Ohio being in the CTZ. It hasn’t been any time after 1930. Early maps had a TZ line zigzagging through Georgia so that the railroad could chose which side of the line they wanted to put Atlanta. All of Ohio was origially in CT on the first 1883 TZ map ever divised for USA.( as was Florida in CTZ) Any TZ line drawn before 1918 was for the use of the railroads.Some communties did adopt railroad time as official time, however.
I really enjoyed reading Jim’s documentation of events that I remember happening in 50s and 60s and anyone who has researched time history knows how difficult it is and even after having researched it’s not always clear who really was behind any passed legislation. Things haven’t changed.
I do remember one little bit of ritual as a kid as we drove from Illinois to Indiana. ‘We’re in Brownsburg'( a little sleepy town at that time). ‘This is where the time changes!’ So looking back though historical fact, that must have been in the 60s.
I think the proponents of the 1961 move had visions of an economic axis consisting of Indianapolis, Louisville, and Nashville along I-65 which was already on the drawing board. For some reason Nashville got lucky or smart and was not included in the transfer.
Tom Heller at the hearings last year pointed out how absurd it was to change a time zone for reasons of commerce. He used the fact that Wisconsin did a lot of business with states in the eastern zone to illustrate his point.
Here is an argument I made for central time in the article mentioned in #37 that supports Gary’s comments.
A good indicator of economic health for a city or state is population growth. From 1990 to 2000, Michigan and Ohio both Eastern Daylight states grew 6.9% and 4.7% respectfully. Illinois grew 8.6% and Indiana grew 9.6%, both Central Daylight states. For the same period, Detroit, Toledo, Cincinnati, and Louisville, cities that are effectively on Double Daylight Time all lost population. Chicago, Ft. Wayne, Indianapolis, and Nashville, Tenn. cities on Central Daylight Time gained population during this period. What does this all mean? I don’t know but it should not be ignored.
Not so long ago, the center of population for the United States was located in Indiana. With each passing decade the center has moved farther south and west but it still is in the Central Zone. Many more Americans live west of Indiana than to the east of us. Logic would say that the businesses on Central Time would be closer to the center of the national marketplace. The old economy was tilted to the east. The new global economy has a western look toward Silicon Valley and the Pacific Rim. Gov. Daniels’ recent trade mission traveled west to Taiwan and Japan.
Central Indiana is making a very large investment to gain more convention business. One of the selling points is Indianapolis’s central location. It would be great to offer the attendees a central time also. Time differentials between zones are less with Central than with Eastern. New York is one hour ahead of Chicago, two hours ahead of Denver, and three hours ahead of Los Angeles. Chicago is one hour behind New York, one hour ahead of Denver, and only two hours ahead of Los Angeles. With Central the widest difference is two hours, while Eastern is three hours ahead of the Pacific Zone and two hours ahead of the Mountain Zone. The more we align our state with the East the wider we separate ourselves from the remaining 75% of the nation.
Jim,
I’ve long thought time zone is a local or regional issue. If you don’t change time zones during your daily routine,then it shouldnt be a problem and business never has a problem doing business as long as time is always predictable,so I think DST is the big plus for Indiana.But I have modified my view being in Indiana this summer that both sunrise and sunset are just TOO late for comfort.
unioncitynative: Thanks for the burger tip! Burgers and DST discussion–I’m in heaven! ;-)
Jim, Lou, Gary: thanks for the history. There is no reason whatsoever for Indiana to be on EDT. If it is true that proximity to Ohio was a reason for moving into the eastern time zone way back when, I can tell you all (for about the thousandth time) that most of us who actually had to deal with the time difference with Ohio adjusted very well. If we could deal with being an hour behind Ohio for part of the year, surely we could have dealt with that for all of the year. Any business that truly has to deal with other time zones on a regular basis should be able to figure things out. Do Arizonans and Hawaiians complain about missed meetings and conference calls due to not observing DST? I’m not trying to be smart aleck, I’m really curious.
I recently attended an event that included people from Marion County. DST came up in the conversation, and one of the Marion County people couldn’t believe that those of us in attendance from Wayne County hated being on EDT. She assumed that we’d like being on the same time as Ohio. Or maybe she thought we’d be unable to add and subtract 1.
David Kinney said “There are many businesses who have been significantly hurt from daylight savings time. Most notably the sit down restaurants, who use to be busy at 6:30 to 7:00 in the summer. Not this summer. And if they do, what effect will this have on their health in terms of weight gain (i.e. eating right before you go to bed).”
1. Most reports I have seen about sit down restaurants have been that they are staying open later and making more money post DST. Speading out the time available to eat supper means less wait and more people overall.
2. No studies have shown that eating before bedtime causes weight gain
I support going to Central Time, most of all because that is where we live and Eastern time was only put in place to be year-long DST. Like any good debate, EDT does have some advantages. You can’t ignore or twist the facts on that. The goal for those of us who want CDT or EST is to show why those advantages are less benefical when compared to the advantages of CDT or EST.
Pila,
Time is never a problem if it’s your home time.Everyone knows what time it is at home and makes automatic adjustments from wherever you go.But I think it’s ‘provincial’ to think that yearlong standard time is OK IF every other state observes DST.I dont mean to namecall anyone, but I think time must have a universal pattern,otherwise it throws up unnecessary obstacles and causes unfortunate misunderstandings.
That being said, I think Indiana should be on DST,but I also dont like ET with DST for Indiana.But I also think putting the whole state on CT would cause other problems.Any viable time zone adjustment would have to include other states and I’ve seen no indication Ohio or Michigan or Kentucky have the slightest inclination for that.So I guess Indiana may be stuck with what is.’Time will tell’.
Also, I think that the main reason people dont like DST with ET is that the sunrises too late or it sets too late,and nobody can submit reasons like that to USDOT.They would dismiss them out of hand( as they have done) and maybe snicker while doing it.That’s why people who want a certain time zone are forced to come up with a list of reasons that USDOT will accept,valid or not for the reason they really want a certain time zone.
Doug – Did you think a short paragraph about how hot it is would get this much response? Everyone makes such interesting remarks that I almost feel obligated to get my 2 cents in. Are blogs addictive? Maybe we are all seeking the front porch communion of a bygone era that Paul mentioned.
Lou – Hoosiers have gotten a bad rap that we are obstructionists who stubbornly refuse to accept DST. The fact is that many counties in Indiana observed DST in the 1930s before it was in vogue. I personally think that 4:20 sunrises with CST in June don’t make anymore sense than 8:15 sunrises with EST in January. You are right people can and do business across time zones many times a day without any problems if the times are predictable. Indiana is divided and most of the state has been placed in the wrong zone thereby making it very difficult to predict the time. For Indiana to achieve its full economic potential we must rid ourselves of this unpredictability burden caused by our state being divided and in the wrong zone.
As for Michigan, Kentucky, and Western Ohio, they are all geographically located in the central zone and have chosen to jump off the bridge into the eastern river and as mothers the world over preach just because they did it doesn’t mean we have to also. Taking the argument that a state should be in the same time zone as its neigbors to the extreme would mean all the states would be in one zone just like China and nobody would be happy. In short, it makes more sense to locate a time zone boundary at a state’s border where it can be readily recognized and understood than to hide it at a county line.
As I’ve noted in the past we had a great deal going with the way it was. All that needs to be said is DST (Daniels Standard Time)!
Either EST or Central which my county is currently on is fine with me.My sister and brother in law live in Sullivan county which is on EDT and hate it!I found a earlier post about Rep.Woodruff`s wife getting a unadvertised state job for 42,000 a year interesting look`s like pay back for his vote.My sister in law works in Knox county and says everyone she`s talked to is going to vote against Rep.Woodruff.I also believe his days are numberd.I hope the DOT has enough since to turn down the new petition by my county, Martin and the other 4 counties here in southwest Indiana for Eastern time.My thoughts are always the commissioners from southwest Indiana got exactly what the asked the DOT for at the Jasper hearing last November and the people complaining now should have taken part in the process last year!I agree with Doug the time system we had was not broken and did not need fixing!!
Phillip,
Have those 5 counties submitted their petitions to USDOT for ET? I was wondering if they had, as well as Pulaski County.The re-petitioning was in the news almost daily, and then suddenly nothing has come publically for a couple months.
Here’s a link to the DOT docket that relates to a May 22, 2006 letter from the DOT to Pulaski County:
http://dms.dot.gov/search/document.cfm?documentid=399249&docketid=22114
As far as I know this 11 page letter is where the matter stands. For those interested in the time zone issue, I would take the time to read the letter. Written by Judy Kaleta, the DOT’s Senior Counsel for Dispute Resolution and the lead person at all four time zone meetings last year, Kaleta hammered Pulaski County Commissioners.
“In a May 1, 2006 teleconference with Departmential officials during a Commission Meeting, the County Commissioners represented that they did not provide accurate information in their original petition and misled the Department in order to strengthen their case for Central Time.
We were disappointed to learn of these assertions and the County’s approach to the time zone issue. Both for legal and policy reasons, the truthfulness of information submitted to the United States government is of critical importance. Indeed, it is legally required under 18 U.S.C. 1001. The Department takes seriously the review and consideration of any petition seeking a change in the time zone boundaries and relies upon the accuracy of data and information supporting the petition. Therefore, we expect that the information and data you provide in response to this letter will be both accurate and truthful.”
Talk about smackdown. Pulaski County had until June 30th to provide additional information.