The USDOT time zone docket: OST-2005-22114 “Time Zone Boundaries in the State of Indiana” has experienced a dramatic increase in activity, particularly in the past five days. A quick look seems to suggest most of the activity is coming out of Dubois and Knox Counties.
Interesting to note that the time zone docket relating to Indiana has cracked the “Top 25” at the DOT web site.
http://dms.dot.gov/reports/topdock_rpt.htm
Unless the DOT opens a new docket number I’m sure this will move up the scale. Unlike some would have us believe, this is no small issue.
Actually, now that I study the list in greater detail that 25th place seems even more impressive. The Top 25 list includes everything in the Docter Management System (DMS). Looking at the docket number one can see what agency the issue relates to and what year the docket was opened. The “Time Zone Boundaries in the State of Indiana” was a 2005 docket and the “newest” member of this list. Looking at the OST members, the time zone ranks 8th, however the other seven were opened between 1997 and 2002. Considering that the time zone docket was opened in August 2005 the 36693 “hits” seems quite impressive.
Anyone have any thoughts on what was reported this week in the Loogootee Tribune about county attorney Lett at a Martin county council meeting saying it was the Governor who hired the INDY law firm to write the petition for the counties of southwest Indiana I was at a restaurant this morning in Jasper and heard a table full of people fighting about time zones.The Governor has done great things for friends and neighbors of southwest Indiana.He managed to get a lot of them mad at each other!
Ending with August 18 entries, on USDOT docket # 22114 I counted 21 for CT and 19 for ET out of the first 40, I skipped some names appearing more than once and skipped an anonymous one..1 for ET and 2 for CT gave no reason .
Generally ET votes wanted unity within the state,and they seemed largely business oriented…very consistant… CT votes had daily ties to Illinois(3)Others saw a Chamber of Commerce or ‘special interests’ or ‘uppercrust’ plot against CT.. another said we should stick with what was decided and another that we should try it a year, One mentioned dark mornings/late sunset.One wanted unity with Evansville and media.Another just didn’t want any more change.2 pointed that profits were good on CT because CT favored their customers.
I was interested personally in what people were writing in the docket,so I tried to make a quick , honest tally of what I found.I don’t guarantee absolute accuracy,but it’s close.
I was surprised how varied the CT responses were and how consistant the ET responses were.
“Consistency” may reflect a common source, in other words, someone is running a pro-ET astroturf campaign.
The thing I have noticed about the Eastern time advocates around here is that everyone of them has a personal agenda.It is all about living in one time zone and working or doing business in another including my own family memebers who live in Sullivan county but work at Crane.As I have stated before this is a perfectly understatnable argument but I`m sick of them using the bad for business argument,bad for Crane argument this is all a lot of BS and they have no proof it hurts business. It has been stated on here many times Kimball International who argues for Eastern is having a very good year so far on Central,either time zone has little to do with the well being of a business.If you have a business and can`t conduct yourself on different time zones your in trouble!The chamber of commerce will always back Eastern time. Hell they`d back Eastern time in Illinois if they thought they could get the state to petition for Eastern!Do not get me wrong most Central time advocates want Central because of living in one time zone and working or doing business in another.As I have stated over and over the Crane base has been 1 hour behind these big east coast customers they speak of in the new petition from the first Sunday in April to last Sunday in October for over thirty years.I did not hear any complaints about it being bad for Crane in all those previous years!Is it better that residents and tax payers in Martin county have their schedule burdened so out of county Crane workers won`t?How about the nearly 900 people that commute to the Central time zone to work out of Dubois county by far the largest number of out of county commuters?There are no easy answers.My argument is this state is geographically in the Central time zone just look at the dividing line as it come up from the south.I know this argument is rejected by the DOT.Either put the majority of this state on Central except the counties near Cincinatti and Louisville,have a referendum vote or go back to Eastern Standard time or show where businesses are suffering on Central time.The notion that all these businesses in Dubois county will be hampered on Central is rediculous to say the least when 3 counties that border it including the largest city in the area EVILLE and a major manufacturing facility close by Toyota are all in the Central time zone is pure hogwash!!
Jim – what a great find. I had no idea that DOT was keeping score. To elaborate a little more on the points Jim and Paul are making. On this scorecard they are measuring hits but not the number of submissions. There might be another card that measures the number of submissions. I checked one Docket on the list and it only had 500 submissions. The others on the list are concerned with issues that have a national scope. This makes the numbers for 22114 much more impressive because it is basically a state issue. Divide the hits, 104486, for #1 on the list by 50 and you get 2090 which is only a very small fraction of the 36861 hits for 22114. We are #1 without a doubt.
Lou- Thanks for doing the counting. Paul is right that the Chamber has a well organized campaign. You could tell by the sameness of the address headings of the earlier submissions that they were part of a campaign. Even the wording was very similar.
We were told many times that a submission to the Docket was not a vote. To our consternation, DOT’s ruling mentioned more submissions wanted eastern than central. To arrive at this conclusion, if a submission said it wanted to be on the same time as the rest of the state it had to have been placed in the eastern column. Having the Docket on the internet is a great innovation but it or hearings will never take the place of a ballot box. You could bet the family farm if the Chamber’s polls showed a preference for eastern we would have a referendum. If someone spots a submission specifically requesting Eastern Daylight Time let all of us know. We in Indiana have lived with 2 zones for a long time but this has been moderated to a large extent by all of the clocks in the state being set to the same time in the summer period. Eastern daylight changes that. October 29th, 2005 is the last time all the clocks will have been set the same. This boundary will be a virtual fence that will tend to suppress the intercourse between the zones. This is why there were real tears shed on the floor of the General Assembly when daylight time passed. What a despicable thing to divide the state so some could be on the same time as New York. The sad part is they realized what they were doing and didn’t care. Don’t read too much into the Docket Lou. Very few of us are in love with Eastern Daylight. All most people who request eastern want is to maintain their well established relationships.
Phillip please keep up the good fight. We will help all we can. When we are helping you we are helping ourselves. Something puzzles me about David Crooks’s statement that 80% favor a referendum. If this were the case it would seem to me all the candidates would be claiming credit for it. Did he say if this was a recent poll or one from last year?
http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/260.html This is a link to United States Code – Title 15-Chapter 6 – SUBCHAPTER IX – that governs Standard Time.
§ 261. Zones for standard time; interstate or foreign commerce
For the purpose of establishing the standard time of the United States, the territory of the United States shall be divided into eight zones in the manner provided in this section. Except as provided in section 260a(a) of this title, the standard time of the first zone shall be based on the mean solar time of the sixtieth degree of longitude west from Greenwich; that of the second zone on the seventy-fifth degree; that of the third zone on the ninetieth degree; that of the fourth zone on the one hundred and fifth degree; that of the fifth zone on the one hundred and twentieth degree; that of the sixth zone on the one hundred and thirty-fifth degree; that of the seventh zone on the one hundred and fiftieth degree; and that of the eighth zone on the one hundred and sixty-fifth degree. The limits of each zone shall be defined by an order of the Secretary of Transportation, having regard for the convenience of commerce and the existing junction points and division points of common carriers engaged in interstate or foreign commerce, and any such order may be modified from time to time. As used in sections 261 to 264 of this title, the term ”interstate or foreign commerce” means commerce between a State, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or any possession of the United States and any place outside thereof.
What is the legal definition of regard? I have always thought it was synonymous with consider but have found it has many more meanings. What was the intended meaning in this context? Could it be a request from the commerce sector that understood the boundary line would need to be adjusted and for the government to consider the effect it would have on commerce and to do as little harm as possible? Or is it a call for action for the government to adjust the line to improve commerce? There is a big difference between doing no harm and doing good. Until 1961 the view prevailed that the lines should be placed where they would create the fewest problems and the least harm. The 1961 ruling that transferred 43 Indiana counties and Louisville was clearly an attempt to do good and improve commerce but in this instance it also did much harm.
Someone mention in a comment on another thread that commerce is always changing and to place the boundary for convenience of commerce would require frequent adjustments. It would also require the government to know what is best which in a global economy is impossible to know.
For what its worth here is what I think the hierarchy of considerations should be.
Geography- The Code anchors the center lines of the zones and the boundaries should be kept close to midway between the lines.
Convenience of government – Dividing cities, counties, states should be avoided when practical.
Convenience of the people- The people should have a say when a transfer is being considered.
Convenience of commerce-
Jim,Crooks just said they had polling results that showed 80% wanted a referendum he did not state when the poll was done.As far as the docket goes I have no doubt if a comment period (NPRM) is issued there will be a huge number of pro eastern time submissions made by Crane workers from the Eastern time zone there are around 3000 of them and a vocal group went county by county in Feb.,March,and April last year to commissioners meetings pushing Eastern time.They are also well organized.There arguments will all be the same that Central hurts the base but the real motivation is work and home schedules I just wish they`d admit it.As I`ve stated that is a perfectly logical argument.My sisiter and brother in law who work there say this is really what the problem is and they hate Eastern time since they go to bed at 9:00pm thru the week and it is still light out.The sad thing is just like last year while all this was being decided people do not pay attention until it`s too late.In FEB when Martin county was considering repetitioning for Eastern and Dubois wasn`t only a few people from my county out of the almost 800 who work in Dubois county showed up at the meetings about the time.When I talked to one of them from Loogootee who had been fighting all along for Central and asked why more workers living here and working in Dubois county weren`t here he said he tried to get people to come but most said they thought the DOT would not change things back so quickly.Little did they know!I really do believe the fix is in though but I will keep commenting and countering there arguments because I believe Central is best for southwest Indiana.This is also worth mentioning my sister said the Crane employees association tried to get the base commander to come to meetings last FEB and spring to take a side and he would not.If the fix is in and the counties go to EDT I will feel sorry for Tim Joyce and his family and all the others which will be many many people from southwest Indiana that will be hurt by this as stated earlier “virtual fence”.I feel bad for those in southwest Indiana now that live in Central and work in Eastern but there are not as many of them”work commuters” going to Eastern from Central as there will be the other way if the boundary is moved.While I sympathize with the out of county Crane workers and others who live in Eastern but work in Central I do not feel as bad for them because they are out of county people(southwest Indiana counties).
Yes, I think the ‘fix is in’,but Im trying( not always succeeding) not to lecture Hoosiers on what I think is logical and rational about either ET or CT.I always point out that I don’t live in Indiana, although I’m in and out, and I could never feel the raw emotion of the issue. It’s beyond any level any outsider like myself could appreciate. There is no such thing as ‘logic’.I also try not to ‘explain ‘ basketball.
But still may I make the following observations? This is why I now think these 6 counties will indeed all go back to ET. Until Govenor Daniels presented the ‘2006 Strategic Development for the State of Indiana’ I thought USDOT would just brush aside these re-petitions. They had spent a lot of time on the process last year and I didn’t see them rehashing the same old arguments,already thoroughly examined. But the Daniels administration has successfully framed the TZ issue in economic development and there’s a whole new dimension of discussion.We now have’ ‘Regional Organization of the Indiana Development Corporation’ and then comes ‘ Regional Organization of Workforce Development’.The TZ issue hasn’t even been presented yet. Finally, we have TZ adjustment mentioned as part of the whole economic future for Indiana. What the govenor has done is redefined ET as a tool, bringing unity to Indiana , but still making the over all issue ‘economic development’ and not ‘TZ placement’. To argue for CT then, would be to argue AGAINST Indiana’s future. Probably those who would present a case against the re-petitioning would have spent a lot of time pointing out that either these 6 counties were lying back then or they are lying now. This argument won’t work now.It’s now an economic issue and the govenor has already given blanket amnesty for the so-called ‘lying’ by saying it was a misunderstanding of not knowing what other counties would do ( which is basically true).Everyone saw a different ending to last Fall’s time hearings,and each advocacy had an agenda. Especially CT people assumed a great deal of subsequent TZ adjustment would follow.
The fact Govenor Daniels is putting himself publically in favor of the re-petitioning for ET and is making it part of his overall economic package for Indiana’s future,having USDOT deny the re-petitions would,to understate the effect,be embarrasing to the whole of Daniel’s state goverment.Govenor Daniels finally has an understanding of how to use the time issue to his advantage.. WHO is in favor of something is very important,more than the issue itself.No issue of a public importance like TZ placement can ‘present itself’.I predict ( remember I’m an outsider and probably dont know as much about this issue as Hoosiers)that in future Indiana will have a time zone division very similar to the 30 years from 1970-2005,but with DST also part of the picture.
Indiana’s fate was sealed back in 1915 when ICC put Detroit on ET for good. Michigan followed suit to be in tune with the Capital and then Ohio was placed on ET in 1925 for conformity of the region, then Louisville was placed on ET about 1960 to conform to Cincinnati and here we are today:Indiana surrounded on 3 sides by ET,with a huge contingency of adamant pro-CT advocacy.
But if mandatory DST had ever been foreseen back in 1915, the TZ lines would certainly never have crept so far west.Time Zone westward creep was the first attempt at modern DST,to gain more afternoon sun,except it didnt work on the east side of the time zone.We needed DST as a better solution.
I must correct that Detroit is NOT the Capital of Michigan as I stated above. We all memorized state capitals in 5th grade..
Lou’s post is an excellent example of the power of a blog to exchange ideas. Pro-Central advocates would be wise to carefully read his post and then slide over to the Governor’s media web site and review those regional organization plans.
http://www.in.gov/gov/media/index.html
Clearly the object of the current administration was to have as much of Indiana as possilbe on Eastern Time. In looking over this development plan, while the issue of time is not clearly defined, one can see it’s shadow in every part of his program.
While I do not have a clear solution to the Daniels approach, I completely agree with Lou’s observations. Daniels is working to reframe the time issue directly with development. How the DOT reacts to this new round of petitions will be important. Will they continue the current docket number or open a new one? How will they lay the new process out?
Perhaps the best approach is pressure, the voting kind of pressure. This needs to be placed directly on area representatives. It’s one thing to say Troy Woodruff has no political future, it another to get people to the voting booth.
My first reaction to the new petitions was that Daniels was nuts to open this can of worms again. Now I got to give the Gov credit. He’s not up for election this November and perhaps his advisors feel that the House will return to Democratic hands and he is positioning himself for two years of gridlock. Why not flush this out now, try and grab as much as possible, then spend the next two years complaining about gridlock. Got to admit, it’s a great way to start a re-election campaign.
To those keeping score, Indiana has moved to 24th place jumping over a 2002 UPS docket now up to 36,862 “hits”
Lou,nowhere and I repeat nowhere did the commissioners of southwest Indiana mention or concern themselves with or did not know what the other counties were going to do in arguments to the DOT at the November Jasper hearing or in any statements they made at the DOT Jasper hearing. I was at the hearing.Were you??These counties,commissioners only mentioned being on the same time as each other, the 5 counties already on Central time and EVILLE.When they argued for Central they did not mention Lawrence county or Sullivan which were also petitioning for Central and were denied.You seem to be very knowledgeable about this issue so if you have a source or documentation on where the commissioners of my area southwest Indiana spoke up for or counties other than Martin Daviess,Knox,Dubois,Pike and Perry or did not know what the other counties were doing they have the closest ties to and are in the same workforce developement region as mentioned by the DOT please list the source.I do not see how people or the Governor can make the argument that these counties did not know what other counties were going to be seeking Central time when these are the only counties down here aside from Sullivan and Lawrence that were seeking Central on a regional unity issue and as I stated never that I am aware of concened themselves with Lawrence and Sullivan counties!The Governor is a liar and a bait and switch man!Mr.Woodruff is finished but I`m sure the Governor has a fat paying job to appoint him too!!
Just a quick update as Doug may want to open another thread but the Pulaski County petition has appeared on the docket:
http://dms.dot.gov/search/document.cfm?documentid=410318&docketid=22114
In addition the joint petition from the Southwestern Indiana counties appears along with the Daniels letter to the DOT and the Regional Organization for Workforce Development.
Those of us in Northern Indiana wondered when and what Pulaski County would come up with and at over 200 pages it going to take some time to review.
Lou: I think you hit the point in comment 10 above. Time Zone creep was the first form of daylight time. Daylight time came along to end the need for more creep. Problem is when we get off two hours you pay on the other end. More interesting is the comment on Detroit. If we were able to go back to 1915, it was a different world. Detroit was a vibrant fast growing metropolis. Between 1900 and 1950 Detroit exploded from a mid-sized city to a huge metropolis, just shy of 2 million and just shy of overtaking Philadelphia as the nations fourth largest city. In 1915 with the growth of the automotive industry, many believed that Detroit would over take Chicago, much like Chicago had done to St. Louis 40 years earlier. Then to put it in an automotive phrase, they threw it in reverse. Losing half of its population by 2000, and doing a good job in the 21st century on trying to lose the other half. Even the suburbs are not immune. Troy lost both K-Mart (moved to Chicago in Sears merger) and Franks (bankrupt) in less than one year. If this is what Indiana’s commerce is tied to we are in deep trouble. Strike one.
In 1915, it was more important to be in line with the nation’s capital. Business was done directly with the agencies in D.C. Today there are many programs delegated to the states from agencies varying from the EPA to HUD. The programs deal directly with the regional offices, long delegated oversight and approval from HQ in Washington. The 10 regional office cities were standardized by President Nixon. Indiana State agencies report to Chicago, which is on Central Time. Strike two.
Trade is always shifting, what was true in 1915 and even in 1995 is not true today. The automotive industry is shrinking in Michigan and growing in Tennessee. (and even growing in Indiana for that matter) The latest focus by our people in Washington is NAFTA, Indiana is one of the 10 states that does significant business with Mexico (Central time zone). A series of articles in 1999 (still on line) done by the Fort Wayne News Sentinel, pointed out that Mexico was Indiana’s 4th largest trade partner. With all of this NAFTA stuff and now CAFTA (Central America) being signed in 2005, more Cental Time countries are in this program. There is a lot of controversy on both sides, each exaggerating the benefits/woes. Regardless, trade has shifted in a different direction in the past 10 years, and I doubt many industries or the Chamber of Commerce has any idea of that impact. Strike three.
The point is, is true convienience of commerce represented here, or is this just another political move in a “public be damned” spirit?
Phillip, Good Luck with your fight, I certainly hope you win this one.
NAFTA link http://www.ustr.gov/Trade_Agreements/Regional/NAFTA/Section_Index.html
News Sentinel Articles
http://jordan.fortwayne.com/ns/projects/nafta/index.php
Gary,
Interesting synopsis of Detroit’s history,and the importance of time in economic development..I really enjoyed researching into time zone history and it’s by mere change with one-vote margins even, that we have the TZ’s placed now where they are..Nothing can compare to a blog with informed people willing to take the time to explain their expertise on the subject at hand. This makes me think that trade: NAFTA ,CAFTA is the reason Mexico has begun in recent years to observe DST. Mexico always stayed on CST year round, so we’d have 6:30 pm sunsets in Cancun( not much yearly change). So if Mexico were still observing perpetual CST, there would be NO comparison possible timewise with Indiana and Mexico.There had been a feeling that Mexicans never could get it straight how to set clocks ahead and back,,so they should just leave the clock alone.I guess they learned overnight!
I’ve always maintained, and I’m among the small minority in this blog certainly, that DST is far more important than TZ.Any commerce can deal with predictable change such as time ALWAYS being an hour ahead, an hour behind or the same. Many CT advocates pooh-pooh this argument because it undercuts the ET vs CT argument.Not even spending 5 seconds ‘figuring out’ what time it is somewhere considering what the date happens to be is not a good thing.You can’t set long range appts easily,without always having to recheck time ‘here’ and time ‘there’.Suddenly 10 am HERE doesnt mean the same at the OTHER end
I feel a need to make it known,were I a resident of Indiana, I would never vote for Daniels because he’s so ultra-conservative and tied to religio-fanaticism ( in my view) , but his effort to get Indiana in sync with the nation to observe DST was the best thing he has accomplished. But I wouldnt want anyone to think I’m ‘carrying water’ for the govenor.But also don’t ask me to deal with 10 pm sunsets in summer and 9 am sunrises in winter. I sure don’t know what a better answer is.Maybe you Hoosiers can figure one out! I know I’d pick the DST and stifle my dislike of sunrise and sunet times and try hard to adjust with the off-centered day,til a solution can be found.
I’m waiting for any politician to step forward and give a solution for those who want statewide CT!
Just a brief note to CT supporters in SW Indiana. The figures cited to the DOT relating to commuting, when accumulated, will show that the petitioning counties both send more workers to non-petitioning CT counties than to the ETZ and receive more workers from non-petitioning CT counties than ETZ counties, despite all the hooplah about Crane. The ratios are in the range of 4 to 3 Central over Eastern.
Reference to vehicular traffic levels will also show that ground vehicle traffic between the petitioning counties and the CT exceeds traffic to the ETZ by at least a 5 to 3 margin. This margin represents in excess of 20,000 daily trips, which is far too large to be explained by the numbers of commuters. This result is consistent with the suggestion that the area gets supplies from CT areas and goes to (or draws from) CT areas for health care, entertainment, etc.
Lou – You have nothing to fear from Daniels being religious. He is more Machiavellian than the Boy Scout image he tries to convey. There will never be a political messiah to save us from the evils of the eastern crowd. The Indiana Chamber of Commerce does all the thinking for the Republican Party and the Democrats are too timid to fight. If the Chamber had its way we would keep advancing the clock until we all start to work on the graveyard shift.
You are a minority of one if you believe DST is more important than time zones. The difference between EDT and CDT is the same as the difference between night and day for us who have to go to work in the dark. Hoosiers have always accepted CDT. In fact, we have been observing it full time the past 45 years. No harm would come if the state was reunited into the central zone. Last year in the summer you could go to the 4 corners of the state without changing your watch. This year you can’t. EDT was promoted to eliminate the confusion cause by us not changing our clocks twice a year. It would be the first time Daylight Savings Time ever unconfused anyone. Besides if DST is so great why does the rest of the nation bother to set their clocks back in the fall? They could enjoy late sunrises just as much as we do.
Dividing Indiana up into economic spheres is senseless and pure stupidity. As Gary points out commerce is constantly shifting. Ninety years ago there were more automobile manufacturers in Indianapolis than in Detroit. But Detroit had Henry Ford who used mass production to create a mass market while the Indy cars were built for the small upscale market.
Indianapolis could surpass Chicago in the next 50 years and become the economic center of the region because of its location. It already has more interstates than any other city in the nation and with the completion of I-69 it will become “The Crossroads of North Americaâ€. If this does occur should everyone in the region adjust to Indianapolis time?
In the first section of the grand plan Daniels points out Indiana has lost ground since the 1950s. It is true that the average income for Hoosiers then was 106% of the national average and now it is only 91%. It is also true that Indiana was on Central Standard Time in the 1950s. Changing a time zone boundary, as the ICC did in 1961, to achieve a perceived “good†is also senseless and stupid. Boundary lines by their very nature are divisive and incapable of creating “goodâ€. The best anyone can do is place them where they will do the least harm
I can’t follow the argument that Hoosiers have been following DST for 45 years.DST is part of both the ET and CT time zone systems.
The way I understand the ICC ruling in 1961 is that it was keeping with a populist movement to put part of Indiana the same as Michigan and Ohio. Have feelings changed over the years? I would say ‘no’ except many or most are bothered by the sunrise and sunset times with DST. Sunrise and sunsets times are the issue almost exclusively in Indiana.No one has found a way to have both DST and more equally divided days and the debate is ‘which one do we keep?’or ‘how do we keep both?’
I shouldnt have labeled Govenor Daniels as I did.Im greatly disturbed by restrictive social legislation and referenda being used as a fire brand to plod the base into action AGAINST people,so they’ll be galvanized when the ‘party’ needs them on other issues.I don’t like even partially civilized ‘mob rule’ and therefore don’t like referenda( maybe advisory depending on issue). Who advocates and who acquiesces to this stuff isnt clear to any of us for all our politicians. We know only the main ones.I guess we should review the Nurnburg trials concepts of guilt and innocence.
“Indianapolis could surpass Chicago in the next 50 years and become the economic center of the region because of its location.” I suppose, but if we are talking 50 years out (dangerous in any event) I doubt it, unless some way of reducing the energy cost of highway transportation is found. Otherwise rail should enjoy a revival. The proposed high speed rail map for the midwest is interesting in this respect.
http://www.in.gov/dot/modetrans/train/high_speed.html