Jerry Falwell is Dead. Out of some sense of decorum, I won’t rant against him too much just now, but I have to say that he lost all credibility when he had this to say about the causes of the attacks on 9/11:
The ACLU’s got to take a lot of blame for this. . . . And, I know that I’ll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way — all of them who have tried to secularize America — I point the finger in their face and say “you helped this happen.”
Update That didn’t last long. After reading the Carpetbagger Report about some of Falwell’s beliefs, I can’t bring myself to care much about decorum for Mr. Falwell.
Some of the greatest hits:
“I do not believe God hears the prayer of any unredeemed Gentile or Jew.”
The gay oriented Metropolitan Community Churches will “one day be utterly annihilated and there will be a celebration in heaven.”
Illegally funneling ministry money to political action committees.
“We must never allow our children to forget that this is a Christian nation. We must take back what is rightfully ours.â€
Bankrolled a fake “news” video charging that President Clinton was a drug addict and arranged the murder of political enemies.
“I hope to live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won’t have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be!â€
The Antichrist prophesied in the Bible is alive today and “of course he’ll be Jewish.â€
Tinky Winky is gay.
Global warming is a conspiracy orchestrated by Satan, liberals, and The Weather Channel.
So, tell me this: How does a guy who was obviously batshit insane get all that political power in this country?
I asked a similar question earlier in the week. The answer I got was fairly plausible. Falwell and his ilk play to what emotionally feels good. We want to save the children (anti-abortion). We want to go after the bad guys (pro-death penalty). We fear what we don’t know, so we want to get away from the icky gays. Problem is reconciling all those positions in a thoughtful way. That can’t happen, because they don’t THINK, they just feel.
He and his ilk are one of the main reasons that I could never support the Republican party. There is simply no need to exploit religion for political gain.
A sad and shallow man – one that I won’t miss…
I was raised in the United Methodist Church. I have read the bible, both from a literalist and literature point of view. From my humble perspective I respect and honor the right for anyone to worship in any any manor that is comfortable for that person. I do think that one of the great things about our country is the right to respectfully disagree. The problem is when someone who isn’t of our faith, (or is agnostic, atheist, etc.) or anyone we disagree with is automatically wrong. To me this is a very narrow minded view of the world. I am dating a Jewish girl, and while I’m not prepared to convert to Judaism, it is not my place to judge anyone. I am having my own issues trying to reconcile the age of our planet, (determined by science and carbon dating), with the literal view that the Earth is 6,000 years old. A stretch!!
Science and religion don’t have to be reconciled any more than Santa Claus has to be reconciled with Baby Jesus.Leave each in their own realm. There should be no problem.We step into and out of these worlds at will, which is ‘free’.Jerry Falwell didnt stay in his realm I guess is the harshest way I can criticize him.
I’d say great mnds think a like…but I’m supposed to be humble.
Thank you…
Based on the size of his church, at least 24,000 people agreed with him, in person, on a weekly basis. There’s apparently a lot of latent hate, ignorance, and buffoonery sitting around (especially in the Virginia and North Carolina area, apparently) waiting to be snatched up and used for political purposes or simply profit by people like Falwell, Robertson, freaks like Benny Hinn, etc. It’s hard to hate the game and not the player. Falwell played to the lowest emotions of his followers. His statements after 9/11 should have been the end of his public life.
No different than the latent hate, ignorance and buffoonery sitting around places like moveon.org or huffingtonpost.
Let’s put it in perspective, 7. As much as you’d like to portray him as such,. Falwell didn’t speak for me, or probably 85% of Christians, any more than Benny Hinn, Joel Osteen or T.D. Jakes do.
Just as I’m going to assume that the far-left wing nuts on move on don’t speak for you or Doug.
You are making the same mistake most agnostics or anti-Christian bigots make, and that is confusing religion and Christianity.
I hate religion, as I believe Christ did. It gives us the previously mentioned “preachers”, as well as people who fly planes into buildings.
Don’t for one second think those things have much to do with Christianity, or Islam for that matter.
Larry Flynt 1, Jerry Falwell- 0
in memoriam of the “Reverend” Fallwell’s passing into the next world (Gee- Its hot here.
wheres the Angels? and could I get a glass of Ice Water, Please?)giggle!!
Go buy the hilarious DVD “the people vs. Larry Flynt”.
If you liked Jerry falwell, and all his kind, then You will Love Matt Kelty for mayor, unless he moderates his wacky views.
I don’t know what the solution, if any, may be; but the problem with religion with respect to Falwell specifically is that it gives him a facade of respectability behind which he can hide.
An attack on him can quickly be labeled as an attack on religion, making critics hesitant and making his insane rantings more likely to be believed by less deliberative members of the citizenry.
I know it happens, probably frequently, but I’d be happier if actual mainstream Christian organizations were active, vocal, and public with respect to their denunciation of charlatans like Falwell such that he and his peers could gain no traction with any self-respecting Christian; and certainly such that his ilk carried no substantial influence with the major political parties.
Doug, I think it does happen more often than you think, the difference being we don’t seek the limelight the way Falwell did.
Respectability is in the eye of the beholder. The amount of it that Rosie O’Donnell, Al Gore, Rudy Giuliani, Sam Harris, Pat Robertson have depends on one’s personal viewpoint.
One man’s Al Gore is another’s Jerry Falwell.
BTW DOug, it’s all too easy to slam Falwell for numerous things, after all he was an easy target. But you left out a few things.
According to John McCain: “Rev. Falwell came to my office in Washington. He sat down in my chair in my office and said Senator McCain, I want to put our differences behind us. There are many things we can do for our country. I was proud to have that reconciliation. I’m even more grateful now.”
a”Rev. Falwell came to my office in Washington. He sat down in my chair in my office and said Senator McCain, I want to put our differences behind us. There are many things we can do for our country. I was proud to have that reconciliation. I’m even more grateful now.”
Also, did you know that Falwell counted among his closest friends Larry Flynt and Ted Kennedy?
There’s more to the story than your one-sided slam.
Sure there is. Life is complicated. But I have trouble thinking of good qualities that could possibly balance out the incomplete list of crazy shit this man has said that would balance the scales such that he was something other than a raving loon.
The ACLU helped 9/11 happen? That’s appalling.
Forgiveness is a primary virtue of Christianity, and one of the things that separate us from Secularists. Falwell led by example.
How could a man of forgiveness even suggest that 9/11 happened because of feminists, gays, lesbians, and the ACLU?
My take is that the man generated a ton of cash by scaring people about The Other. To put it simplistically: “Scary gay people! Eek! Send me money!”
Jerry Falwell made Southern backwoods Evangelism mainstream Christian.We would have been more uplifted by mainstreaming gregorian chants or baroque church music.I truly mean no disprespect to anyone’s belief,but the term ‘Christian values’ will have a negative connotation for many Christians(myself included) for a long time, and to think many were afraid the Pope was going to take over in 1960 when JFK was elected.
How ironic!
Nice Doug, I guess I expected a bit more class from you of all people. Any anti-Christian bigotry shining through? Not to mention that you seem to be confusing Falwell with Benny Hinn.
The forgiveness part came from people who seem to have a bit more maturity than you possess in this matter, namely Ted Kennedy and Larry Flynt. Are you attempting to state for the record that you’ve never said or done anything incredibly stupid that required forgiveness from anyone? You’re married, so that can’t really be the case.
BTW, in going through your archives, I can’t seem to find the posts where you condemn Rosie Donnell for her unbelievably offensive comments regarding 9/11 being a Bush conspiracy.
Is that because you agree or support her position? Or simply because you and she are on the same side of the political spectrum, and you’re loathe to attack a fellow Secularist?
Jerry Falwell made it easy for the left to avoid substantive debate with social conservatives because he was such an easy target. With his passing, and with the waning of Pat Robertson’s influence, will we return to a more sober debate (as if such a debate ever happened) about the merits of the traditionalist versus ACLU worldviews? So far, each side has just been able to pick and choose a few firebrands on the opposing side and villify the opposition by quoting them and saying. “See what happens if THESE people get their way!” The fact is that both sides wish to see a society much more heavily dominated by their opinions and believes about God (or the lack thereof) and should have to defend their positions on their merits.
Doug, your characterization of Falwell’s schtick may be accurate enough, but one could equally summarize Moveon.org, et. al’s as:
“Eek. Nasty Bible-belt hick! Send me money!” The inherent prejudices being tapped into cut both ways! They will always be tapped into because BOTH political parties need the CASH they generate.
Anti-Christian bigotry? Not at all. If atheists were saying gays caused 9/11, I’d lay into them as well. Same as if the Klan was claiming that it was the blacks.
However, your question does illustrate how charlatans like Falwell hid behind a facade of Christianity to great effect. I can’t call him a pinhead without at least being questioned about whether my insult applies to Christians generally.
As for O’Donnell, I find her horribly annoying, and have since her days fronting VH1’s stand-up comedy show. But, I also judge her to be irrelevant. I think Falwell had real political influence. If Democratic politicians routinely start seeking Rosie’s blessings when seeking office, I’ll consider her a problem. And, if she said that Bush planned 9/11, she’s an idiot.
Atheists don’t claim that gays caused 9-11, no. But, your point that Falwell profited from prevailing prejudices within strains of fundamentalist Christianity against homosexuality, while true, is not exclusive to him. The far-left also profits from and fans prevailing prejudices within its rank-and-file about bogeymen Christians who want nothing less than to impose the New Testament as the Constitution to the detriment of everyone else.
Those who admire Falwell also have to admit that he and those like him, while galvanizing their adherents and giving them a political voice did very little to promote long-term acceptance of traditional conservative ideals as anything other than the perview of fundamentalism. In a society where the debate must be engaged on increasingly secular soil, those who cannot engage non-fundamentalists will not be long for the contest. Long term, Falwell’s legacy will be a double-edged sword for conservatism in general.
I personally found that Falwell was more interested in imposing the OLD Testament as the Constitution, which should have been horrifying to anyone with a conscience. Falwell’s long-running dog and pony show was most certainly not cut from the cloth of New Testament teachings.
Falwell was so ridiculous most of the time he was like a cartoon…a virtual caricature of himself. Matt Groening couldn’t have built a more absurd, buffoonish stereotype had he made it his life’s mission.
Well, Scribe, I don’t think I was talking about you at all, or “Christians” in general, or Republicans, or whoever else you were defending from my “bigotry”. I was clearly talking about the 24,000 in his church and the millions of loyal TV viewers–who he *was* speaking for (as they continued to tune in and send money dispite his buffoonery)–when he blamed gays, the ACLU, and feminists for causing god to allow 9/11 to happen. Jeez–try to keep up. “Lord” forbid I use the guy’s own words against him, *in* context.
I also wasn’t aware that Christianity had exclusive license on the act of forgiveness. Why not copyright smiling while you’re at it?
What if he is right? If you behave in the direct of opposite of someone wouldn’t that indicate you were opposed to them? Well maybe we all should read God’s word, then reconsider our opinion on if he is right based on God’s word, or if he is wrong based on our own opinion. Remember the Truth doesn’t need anyone to believe it , it still remains the truth.
T, go have a drink, will ya? You are seriously at risk for a major stroke.
Feel free to quote where I stated that you “T” specifically were a bigot of any sort.
What I said was:
Not “Hey ‘T’, you’re an anti-Christina bigot.” That’s how crap gets started that someone made a personal attack.
Also, you are aware that Falwell retracted his statement and apologized almost immediately after that statement, aren’t you? As I said to Doug, are you trying to claim you’ve never had an “insert foot into mouth” moment? And believe me, I’m not trying to excuse or condone his statement in any way whatsoever.
Not too mention I never stated forgiveness was exclusive to Christianity, again feel free to quote where I did. I said it was a primary virtue, not that Christians are the only ones capable.
However, it’s important to point out that your refusal to forgive Falwell does one hell of a job of proving my point, don’t you think?
In the future when attacking me, please try to use my actual statements, not your interpretation of them. Surely I give you enough ammo in my actual words?
“Forgiveness is… one of the things that separates us from the Securalists.” Now you don’t seem to mean what you stated. So just what did you mean? You said it was a “primary virute” AND “one of the things that separates us from the Secularists.” That would literally mean Christians have this thing called “forgiveness” and “Secularists” don’t. I don’t make the grammar rules, but I do try to follow them.
Regarding Falwell’s apology… did he really apologize for what he did, or did he make an excuse? After scapegoating gays, etc., for 9/11, he came back and apologized by stating he was tired when he made the statements. I would propose that what he was really sorry for was that he allowed his rhetoric to get further out than people were comfortable with, which brought negative attention to him. I mean, is the guy normally reasonable, but a bigot when tired? Did his fatigue allow hate-mongering thoughts to appear *de novo* in his brain where they otherwise would have never existed? Have all of his segregationist statements, his statements about gays and AIDS, etc., been when he didn’t get enough sleep, didn’t have a fluffy enough pillow, etc.? No, he was sorry because he advanced a theory that received a chilly reception. And he issued the “apology” under duress because of the shitstorm that his words caused.
Then I’m doomed. But, I like my chances.
I think what Scribe might mean is that in Christianity there is a process that allows us to ask God to be forgiven,’as we forgive others who trespass against us’.. Once forgiven,and having forgiven, it removes from us the burden of guilt and let’s us start a new righteous path. . An atheist or agnostic certainly has the capacity to forgive.Perhaps it’s with more free will and less hidden agenda than a Christian.Everyone doesn’t have to have memorized a doctrine to come to the same decision about forgiveness.
I can’t find reference today to him saying he was tired. But I did look up the apology, and it’s a classic blame-the-listener-for-misinterpreting-my-comments non-apology.
After assigning responsibility to abortionists, gays and lesbians, the ACLU, People for the American Way, etc., for 9/11: “I point the finger in their face and say: You helped this happen”, he “apologized”, saying, “I would never blame any human being except the terrorists, and if I left that impression with gays or lesbians or anyone else, I apologize.”
So, reading his words, he “NEVER” would do what he JUST DID a couple of days before. Amazing that after clearly doing just that, he states after the fact that that is something that he would NEVER do. For him, apparently hindsight is 0/20. Maybe he meant he would never do it again? But again, that’s not what he said. But continuing with the “apology”, it is really an apology for the (according to the reverend) incorrect impression it left with others. He wasn’t blaming, yet somehow he left “an impression” of blame with some listeners. In his view, somehow using the actual meaning of his words had caused a misunderstanding among gays and lesbians. So big-hearted ol’ Jerry stepped forward to take the blame for their misunderstanding.
And so, regarding Scribe’s statement about my refusal to forgive him… I can only say, forgive him for *what*? Scapegoating gays? Or fake-apologizing to them, while taking the opportunity after the apology to repeat the same thing he was supposedly apologizing for? Yeah, the deficiency is on my part for not rewarding his fake contrition with forgiveness.
Lou–
It’s not that clear that that is what Scribe means, because later he discusses that I haven’t forgiven Falwell. I’m not God. So I don’t think he was restricting his discussion of “forgiveness” to the act of confessing sins to God.
It’s akin to when Christians say that there can be no basis for morals without God. And it just isn’t so.
Just to play devil’s advocate, which is oh so fun to do with you, just how are you proving that point incorrect in this thread?
Why would you need a God for morality to exist?
I’m not offering a proof of it. The claim is made by Christians that there can be no morality in the absence of God. I would suggest the onus is on them to prove that–or at least offer *any* supporting evidence they can come up with.
I don’t mean to parse words and be a pedant,but Biblical-based laws are ‘moral’ and absolute in presentation,but relative in interpretation. Where do we get moral laws? They could be interpretated ex-cathedra by a Pope, or by some religious tribunal,or Jerry Falwell could give his interpretation,based on his perspective of Scripture. A particular church can set moral laws but they are always baised by the culture of the church, Jerry Fawell being a good example. Another term for religious law is ‘doctrine’.The problem is that any doctrine can be emphasized or set aside in favor of another doctrine that may be favored by the cuture of the church or chruch leaders,but at the same time be presented as God’s absolute law.
Where do we get constitutional laws? They are deliberated by those we elected (and are also compromised by our cultural biaises) and are intended to protect our institutions and the indiviudal by striking a fair balance in a secular world. If a law is unconstitutional it will be overturned by the courts.Constitutional law is based on legal precedents so we have a continuity of law.(Thats why one adminstration can’t come in and fire all the attorneys to deliberately break precedents of law to promote a political agenda).
What we really need in education is the kind of discussions that leads to understanding of what is ‘secular’ and what is ‘religious’. it’s all a muddled mess nowadays.I learned a basic groundwork in public schools,but that seems to not be the case now.