Looks like Greg Sargent has himself a meme going, having dubbed Senator Lugar and like minded Senators WINOs which is short for Waverers in Name Only. This, of course, plays on the acronym RINO, an epithet I first saw over at Free Republic for those Republicans who were not pure of heart: Republicans in Name Only. In the case at hand, the WINO caucus includes Senators Susan Collins, Jack Warner, John Sununu, Norm Coleman, Dick Lugar, Pete Domenici and George Voinovich. These are Republicans who more or less acknowledge that the Bush administration’s plan for Iraq has failed but who will not cast a vote or take concrete action to alter the Bush administration’s course.
I’m not going to claim that the Democratic plan is the perfect one. But, in politics, the perfect is the enemy of the good. In any event, to me the main solution is for the Congress to do what it can to wrest control of this debacle from the President. We know that Bush is an incompetent, yet stubborn, failure who will not change course through any amount of persuasion. He has to be compelled. Normally, I’d say that waging war by committee is a recipe for disaster, but it seems worth a shot given how bad President Bush is at the job. Maybe Congress can do better.
This afternoon about forty of us gathered outside Senator Dick Lugar’s Indianapolis office on West Market Street and asked that he put his votes where his mouth is … this demonstration was pulled together in less than 24 hours!
I don’t want to downplay the seriousness of the Iraq situation, but placed in historical perspective, this conflict isn’t the debacle it’s being portrayed as.
All the rhetoric about “change the course” and “stay the course” is bullshit. Whether you agree with the original decision or not, The United States Congress authorized this war. Just because 5 years later the Democrats and now even some Republicans have decided their jobs and elections are far more important than the mission, it’s not a valid excuse for surrender.
Love him or hate him, Bush, at least is doing the morally right thing (not deserting these people), while congress is eating cold pizza and frickin’ around with stage shows trying to upstage one another to get re-elected. These people (Reid et al) have NO moral compass whatsoever. You wonder why people are cynical? How can anyone take seriously the blatant antics these morons revel in.
Jesus, let the military do it’s job and win the war and get the hell out.
And congrats Wilson, I guess everybody needs SOMETHING to do.
I think if we were serious about imposing order on Iraq, we would have put the clamps down in the first instance (no looting — even if Rumsfeld claims to have seen the same vase being stolen over and over). We wouldn’t have fired all of the Baathists immediately. We wouldn’t have gone out of our way to put Young Republicans in positions of power at the Coalition Provisional Authority.
More recently, if Bush was truly devoted to helping Iraqis, he would have worked to impose a draft or otherwise take steps necessary to vastly increase the size of our Army so that we had the manpower necessary to pacify Iraq. In addition, he would have put the U.S. on an economic war footing by raising taxes to a level sufficient to sustain these efforts.
Wow Tim, you really took a long pull on the kool-aid didn’t you? Congress was lied to. Now that they’ve know it, they don’t like it and want to change their minds. You have a problem with people who are smart enough to realize that a mistake has been made and needs correcting? And for you to talk about Bush and morals in the same sentence is the ultimate in hypocrisy! Finally, the military will never win as a third party in a civil war. Obviously you’re too young or stupid to remember a little place called Vietnam. We’re in the same situation that we were in there. Stuck in the middle of a civil war as a third party to the conflict and guess where that got us? We WILL get kicked out of Iraq. It’s just a matter of when and how many will have to die because of misbegotten views like yours.
Tom, Let’s be clear, first of all, please tell me who lied to congress, when they were indicted, and when they were convicted.
I don’t have a problem with people wanting to correct a mistake. It wasn’t a mistake. You need only go back to the Clinton administration and read the transcripts of the Splooger In Chief to understand the threat Saddam posed. Read Hillary’s quotes too. What I do have a problem with is whining, sniveling, pissant politicians who want nothing more to than retain their elected offices by creating the illusion they are doing the right thing. Is it not moral to help stop the sectarian violence and help these people establish a safe place to live? Isn’t that what you guys advocate in Darfur? Is it moral to pack up and leave knowing full well thousands of people will die and we could have prevented it? Does our morality stop at the border now, because Harry & Nancy want to ensure a democrat victory in 2008?
Lastly, I’m 49. I remember Viet Nam very well. I would hate to see us surrender now like we did then and let millions of people die. That’s the lesson we should have learned from Viet Nam. It’s not ok to give your word and then as soon as a handfull of pansies start worrying about votes, you pull out and wave goodbye. That in my opinion is morally bankrupt.
Tim, George Bush lied to Congress and us all in his State of the Union speech (you know, that whole yellowcake thing). Sure he attributed the intel to the Brits, but the CIA knew damn well that it was an incredulous stretch of the truth from the beginning. Cheney furthered the lie by reporting on several media outlets about Iraq’s “reconstituted nuclear program”. Again, we already had intelligence that knew that Iraq’s nuke program was more “fantasy land” than what we were being sold. Need I keep going on? With regards to the sectarian violence in Iraq, I don’t remember it being so bad PRIOR to our invasion of that country. It’s a Bulls**t argument to say that we have to stay to prevent that violence that WE caused. We’re not helping the situation there, we’re only exacerbating and prolonging it. Once we leave (or get kicked out), I guarantee that another Sadaam style strongman will take over there and it’ll be right back to where it was before (only it’ll probably be a Shiite strongman this time around).
Again with regards to morality, is it moral to start a war of aggression against another sovereign nation based on lies and deceptions? I think it’s kind of late to try to play the morality card for this administration after all the innocent Iraqis they’ve killed in this conflict, not to mention Abu Ghraib, CIA extraordinary renditions, Guantanamo and God only knows how many other “secret detention centers” they have stashed around the world.
Furthermore, it appears to me that Vietnam is doing just fine now. They have a decent economy, a stable government and other than having to deal with all the unexploded death we’ve left all over their countryside seem to be working for a better future for themselves. Which is what I predict will happen in Iraq too, only faster since they actually have something they can trade for cash to rebuild with.
Tom, your basis for the “lies” is all based on your biased interpretation, not based in fact, hence no indictments or convictions. Your entitled to your opinion and interpretation, but it is what it is, interpretation.
You are absolutely correct about the sectarian violence, there was virtually none when Saddam Hussein was in power, as he simply had you gassed or shot quietly for disagreeing. That’s a great way to live now ain’t it? Technically, since we liberated the entire country from tyranny and the people are now free, there will be factions that will fight to take over the reigns, and I guess that’s our “fault”. It was a byproduct of our ensuring another middle east nutcase didn’t have or get access to WMD.
Who is it you speak of that wants us out of Iraq? Is it the Iraqi farmers? The Iraqi businessmen? The Iraqi school teachers? On what do you base your assertion that the “Iraqi People” want us out? Once again that’s your interpretation of what you hear, not exactly what’s fact.
Your arguments are hollow, as they all go in circles. Like, who cares if a million of ’em die, we shouldn’t have gone in there to be begin with!! I don’t know how to break this to you, but that’s not a rational response. One thing no longer has anything to do with the other. How we got there is a moot point today.
What you are suggesting is some sort of really twisted logic of cause and effect, i.e. since we caused the current circumstances to come about and the effect is now factions & sects fighting, we must leave and let them kill one another by the thousands. (let Allah sort ’em out) That sort of logic sounds good to the guys after a couple of beers, but it’s not a very moral or compassionate solution to the problem at hand is it? It’s most certainly not what you expect to hear from a bleeding heart liberal.
I won’t waste my time responding to your “morality” paragraph, it’s like arguing with Rosie O’Donnell. All conspiracy laden anti-American rhetoric with no basis in fact.
As for Viet Nam, yeah, it’s amazing how it only took them 30 years, 3 million deaths and an entire generation to bounce right back!
Your passion is to be admired, but your logic is seriously flawed.
Ah yes, the inevitable “My facts are true, yours are wrong” argument that every neo-con trots out when faced with the inescapable truth. Let’s try this, “Tim, your basis for the “there were no lies†is all based on your biased interpretation, not based in fact,..”. Just because someone wasn’t indicted and convicted doesn’t mean they didn’t lie, or are you saying that Bill Clinton didn’t lie either (impeachment is neither a legal indictment nor a conviction)? Hmmm?
I won’t bother with your specious arguments about my logic as yours contain nothing but your own brand of self righteous drivel. At least I have listed documented facts, all you give are sound bites from Fox News.
I happy you admire my passion, because I regret the complete lack of it I see in your responses. Empty saber-rattling rhetoric that does nothing but ensure that we stay another day and another American soldier will end up giving his life for a lost and senseless cause to appease your vanity.