The correct answer is “bicycle.”
The Southport council walked out when the mayor declined to pray at their meeting.
Four weeks ago, all five Southport City Council members walked out of their monthly meeting in protest of first-year Mayor Rob Thoman’s continuing refusal to present a prayer as has been done for nearly two decades at the start of the public sessions.
“Prayer belongs in your heart, in your mind and in your church,” said Thoman, a dentist who unseated a four-term incumbent in last year’s Republican primary. “Politics does not belong in your church. I don’t come to your church and preach my politics.”
Thoman and council members met and hashed out their differences, the mayor said. He and the all-Republican council will ask the audience at tonight’s City Council meeting to observe a moment of silence in lieu of a prayer.
. . .
“When they say ‘moment of silence,’ they’re trying to take prayer out of it,” said 35-year resident Charles Lynch, 70, who voted for Thoman.Lynch said he would walk out of the meeting if a prayer were not recited.
As I’ve said before, I can’t believe these sorts of prayer have anything to do with bringing people closer to God or receiving divine guidance. To me, this has every appearance of marking territory.
Prayer at the meeting doesn’t do a thing to make the meeting function better. I doubt it brings people any closer to God than they would be if they prayed before or after the meeting. Certainly it runs afoul of Jesus’ admonition against ostentatious prayer, chastising those who love to be seen praying.
I love that! Can we elect this guy for governor?
Doug,
I have to disagree with you on this point:
I worked at a church for several years, and one thing I miss was opening and closing every meeting with prayer. It didn’t matter if we were talking about a Windows NT to Windows 2000 upgrade, prayer was at the begining and the end.
Having gone from that enviroment to the public business one, I have found that meetings do not run as well without prayer. Not that they don’t work, but just not as well. There have been times when I know I was meeting with people who were all of the same faith as I that I lead prayer at business meetings. It works.
Having said all that, if someone’s heart isn’t in it, they shouldn’t pray. That is the type of prayer Jesus preached against. I think that instead of soft-coating it as a moment of silence, they could start the meeting with a preperation time. Those that don’t want to pray can go over notes, etc, and those that do could have their prayer before they begin.
No one should be forced into it.
Amy,
If you like, I’ll pack this guy up and send him to Lafayette. I’d be very happy to unload him on another municipality, and I don’t quite live within the city limits of Southport.
Perhaps you should know that he is quite a bit of work, and just liking one minor aspect of his personality isn’t a very good reason for making everyone in Indiana suffer for it.
He’s a mediocre dentist, a unhelpful landlord, and not a very nice person. But, he sure makes a mean martinet, small town politico. The only reason he’s Mayor is because the incumbent forgot who was more important, her or her constituency. Now, he’s showing that he doesn’t understand that lesson either.
I don’t know the individual, but that stance is correct. NO ONE should be forced to pray period. There is no place in a secular society for enforced prayer time. If people can’t treat each other well or get their business done in an orderly fashion without a public display or piety, then I would suggest that they don’t hold Jesus or Allah or whatever in their hearts either.
The public prayer at a city council meeting is designed to make everyone think this is some sort of solemn event or that God is on their side. How does it improve ANY situation in the city? Does it plow the streets? Find some more money to plug the deficit? Fight crime or fires?
I believe that the INDIVIDUAL must be responsible for his/her own faith and actions based on that. And forcing everyone to sit there and wait until you’re done “getting your head in Jesus’ game” is borderline insane.
What Hoosier 1st said.
I’m an atheist but I believe this is a personal choice and I’m not out forcing it on other people. Since I leave other people alone to their beliefs, it is always annoying to be forced to sit through someone else pushing their belief on me – especially at a government-related function. If you feel you need to pray before hand, that’s your personal choice, just do it on your own time – not on mine.
There is also a “muscle” element to it – a subtle “we, the Christians, will control the decision-making” that is particularly grating.
B.
Jason,
Only when all attendees feel the same way. As much as I try to sublimate it, you would find I am more irksome to deal with in a business setting if I have been forced to sit through a prayer.
How can you make decisions at the municipal level without divine input? I seriously doubt it can be done.
If we ever perfect time travel, we’ll have to use it to go back to the Enlightenment.
What?
You can’t decide how much money to allocate to the sewers without appealing to Jesus’ guiding hands?
You can’t decide to continue a trolley tax to continue downtown development without finding out what the Son of God thinks?
You can’t choose the color of the mayor’s office carpet without first praising God?
Seriously, Brenda is right. Personal choices should be kept personal.
T,
But then we would have to to be founding democracies, framing constitutions, and whatnot… I’m afraid we don’t have it is us any more.
Sigh.
Probably whispering wishes into the air is leaving too much to chance. We should be sacrificing animals and consulting the entrails. It’s as if we don’t really care about the decisions we’re making, to be merely chanting to our sky god.
It seems the reasonable solution to this would be for the mayor to show up to the meetings, as scheduled. If the rest of the government doesn’t want to do its job, so be it. Let them go home, and let the town suffer the consequences of having elected council members who mistook themselves for high priests of some kind.
Southport taxpayers should dock their pay.
Ah, T.. my last comment.. uhm.. I did not recognize the statement above as snark. Please accept my apologies.
Brenda,
Read my last sentance. We’re on the same page as far as forcing people to go through it. My point is that I think that if those that are there ARE in the same mindset, prayer before and after meetings is helpful.
To your point, I think that if someone there is forced into it, the meeting would actually go worse, as you suggest.
How better to have a smooth meeting than to start off by pissing off some of those you intend to work with? Seriously…
Jason,
I think your church meetings, or ones between close family and friends, are the only safe meetings to start with a prayer. Peer pressure is an ugly thing. Asking if it is ok to have a prayer is somewhat like asking permission to smoke. If someone finds it objectionable, they either a) object, but feel bad that they have to object when the “gratious” thing might be to say “go ahead” (thereby putting them in a pissy mood), or b) they don’t object and just sit there in stewing in resentment. Trust me, I’ve been there any number of times.
I understand, Brenda. I wouldn’t just ask a group of people I don’t know extremely well that question.
In the case I described, I met with these men for bible study outside of business. Since this meeting was only us during business hours, I knew it would be fine.
The ‘choice’ of participating almost always amounts to a feeling of exclusion vs inclusion,depending who is calling the shots of whatever has been organized or instituted.When public monies are involved in any way,then it’s also a constitutional matter.
That’s why segregated schools were by definition ‘unequal’ and unconstitutional,and they too were ‘a choice’ at some level.
Prayer to start public meetings has long been traditional in the USA and had become part of the culture,as has swearing to tell the truth on the Bible in court, and it never seemed ‘religious’ until recent times. But once zealots make an issue of the practice,and both sides fear the slippery slope of gradual change,then the symbols become the substance,and that’s where we’ve been for a while. The only solution I see is leadership at all political levels that once again can frame a broad constitutional picture for all of us.We’re all tired of the fools who have been setting the political agendas.
Thats’ why I personally am very happy to see Obama and McCain having public faith and religious converation.Those who listen may finally be able to see the liberal side of religion,especially of Christain thinking,,which has long been stricken from discussion by conservatives,who have been allowed to define everything in their own image.
All I can say when I see stories about ostentatious, shove-it-in-your-face Christians like these people is, Jesus H. Christ.