I’m scarred by years of listening to plaintiff’s attorneys pretending to be sanctimonious, but I’m already tired of reading about whether or not the weather front that blew over the stage at the Indiana State Fair, killing and injuring people, could have been predicted or not. The “search for answers” in these cases is typically a search for someone upon whom we can pin the blame who also has money.
Here is the game plan: 1) find someone solvent; 2) find something they could have done better; 3) pretend that thing was the entire reason the stage fell over with people underneath; 4) hope the jury feels sorry enough for your client to more or less ignore the contributions to the accident by people or factors without money.
Amen!!
Awesome.
With all due respect for all the attorneys involved with this blog: the lawsuits and expenditure of time and resources by all sides will quickly become rather distasteful. I am not an attorney but over time because I was involved with variety of government and organizational activities and my profession I have had the opportunity to be named in variety of lawsuits ranging from wrecks to dog bites, etc. thus got to spend time worrying and with depositions (which always seemed like a huge waste of time whereby as many as four or more attorneys being well paid while I got questioned as to everything but my sanity.) I do feel for the fair administration and for those injured.
They didn’t question you about your sanity? Sounds like malpractice and the loss of a billable minute or two.
I am a lawyer and I commonly blast other lawyers and the tactics I mention above. However- not even a week has gone by and everyone is ready to pass judgment? For or against, it’s still judgment. Why even have an investigation if you can sit at your desk and listen to the governor and look at a video and some pictures.. Yes, that’s all it takes and you can be an expert? How awful for the lives of these people lost.. So unwilling to wait we are, we have to pass judgment *now*. There are things that *could* deserve compensation, and other things that *shouldn’t.* But I find this sentiment expressed here as ridiculous as most others involving the law. With 30 second sound bites and a well-written press release, the majority of people proclaim they know everything there is to know. I find that sad, and a total disrespect for those who died.
“tactics I mention above” = “tactics *you mention above,” sorry.
Sorry, but there’s really no question whether or not the severe thunderstorm could have been predicted. It could and it was, for hours if not days in advance, and the State Fair team was aware of it. Those facts are not in dispute that I’ve heard, unless I’m missing something.
That would seem to make, basically, the entire crowd negligent for attending.
Perhaps so. People aren’t necessarily known for always being rational.
Sugarland, or not, I would have hoped that the concertgoers would have paid more attention to the sky, than to an emcee. In every video/picture I have seen, the sky was very angry looking, and hoping not to lose one’s place in front should have been overridden by the long-drilled storm concept to get under cover. This is Indiana weather we are talking about here, after all.
It’s worth noting, I guess, that a law suit against governmental agencies would proceed under the old contributory negligence standards instead of the comparative negligence standard used in suits between private parties. So, (to use comparative negligence terminology), 1% contributory negligence on the part of the injured party should result in a defense verdict.
I, for one, don’t have a problem with holding the State Fair’s feet to the fire over this — and for the sake of the fair. If the fair had an actual emergency plan (as did many other outdoor venues that canceled shows and moved out crowds the same night), the worst that happens is that the stage crashes onto a bunch of empty chairs. I’m tired of people citing “personal responsibility” of the crowd, when they’re also giving a pass to the personal responsibility of those who built the stage, those who created a legal system that allowed it to never be inspected, of the fair leadership that failed to institute and implement an emergency plan, of the promoters and sponsors who sent stage crew 30 feet in the air when lightning was visible — I could go on. Bottom line is, the fair is already seeing attendance sink, and I can’t imagine any BAND, much less a crowd, eagerly coming back to outdoor concerts unless the fair visibly and demonstrably shows how it will look out for the safety of its guests.
You have a valid point about the State Fair having a responsibility to have in place some kind of real emergency plan and the will to implement it, but you’re wrong that people shouldn’t have some responsibility of their own to attend to their own safety at some point. Hand-holding is for small children, those with certain special needs and sometimes the elderly.
The thing is, I believe that the State Fair will hold itself accountable here. I don’t think that the Governor will shirk on this one.
Agreed, but I hope they don’t launch into a sordid campaign of public mortification followed by years of masturbatory “disaster preparedness” planning. You know, the kind of things that would lead to those speeches with which flight attendants torture us every single effing time we get on a plane??? Sorry, I’m not impressed by that kind of coddling of the unwashed masses. People are literate and generally have some level of instinctive flight response from inclement weather (well, unless they are from Scottsdale, AZ where the sun always shines). I hate to use this event to point toward Old Uncle Darwin’s theories about the evolution of our species…but I haven’t yet heard a band worth dying to hear. It was a freak accident. It would be like blaming the State Fair if a tornado hit a cattle barn and deposited a cow on top of a toddler.
The stage looked poorly designed if you ask me. The state and its contractors should have a duty not to drop things on people. If the storm was the primary cause of the collapse, then how come no other structures fell down?
Doug, I’m a jaded defense attorney myself, but I’m a bit more sympathetic to the idea of litigation here than you are. Certainly, neither the State Fair nor any other entity can be expected to be a guarantor of its guests’ safety. On the other hand, a sudden weather event is generally foreseeable in Indiana in August. On the other other hand, we can’t expect a temporary stage to be strong enough to survive an F5 tornado, for instance. On the other other other hand, obviously such a stage must survive a 20 or 30 mph wind. Where does the line fall? It’s hard to say, but it’s worth exploring.
I think the most interesting question will relate not to the lack of evacuation, but to the construction of the stage and a determination, to the extent possible, of how severe that gust of wind was. We already know that there is no inspection regime, but are there building codes or other laws that might apply to the construction or assembly, and were those standard met? OSHA regs come to mind as well. I’m just spitballing here, but it seems to me that if I had a relative who was killed or seriously injured in this incident, I certainly would be looking into these issues, and I don’t find it particularly offensive that folks want to explore their options with counsel involved. Also, as an attorney who represents governmental entities, obviously you know that the Tort Claims Act compresses the timeline, so the injured parties can’t really sit around.
Probably what I find most grating is not the investigation and allocation of liability in proportion to actual fault — it’s the puffing up of fault to attach to people who have money, the insistent blindness to the fault of people without money; and the pretense of lawyers that goes along with that. I know that’s how the game is played and, some might even claim goes with the duty of advocacy. But, I don’t have to like it or pretend not to notice.
On a technical note, it seems this tragedy occurred as outdoor temporary stage structures fests are becoming more frequent and elaborate as these shows move from state to state during the warm weather months with little government oversight. Contrast that with the scene in “Coal Miner’s Daughter” in which Loretta Lynn is gamely performing with Patsy Cline at a rainy county fair using nothing more than an umbrella for protection. It reminds me of the horrifying theater and opera house fires and collapses in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Eventually, building and fire codes were enacted. I would expect to see the same here.
That Great White concert fire in 2003 comes to mind as well. Indoor pyrotechnics were the culprit there. Just goes to show that I wouldn’t want to go to a concert at the Galtian/Libertarian island the Paypal mogul is trying to construct.
Another storm kills several concertgoers at an outdoor event in Belgium today. A band was actually still playing when the storm hit.
All this “the fans should have just left” comes perilously close to sounding like it was THEIR fault the stage came down on them. Those comments make me think of this guy from Airplane:
“Sheeee-na, they bought their tickets, they knew the risks; I say, let ’em crash.”
exhooiser, since I am the one promulgating the “they should have left on their own” tack, I will answer you.
I don’t care what it sounds like, people should have half a freaking brain in their heads about storms around here. If it looks like a storm, if it blows like a storm, if it sounds like a storm, then one better be smart enough to take care of their own business and get out of the path of the storm.
That would not have helped the man who died while working in the rigging, and I imagine that the State will likely be held liable for their actions that night. And, just to make your little hand-holding heart happy, I imagine that everyone injured or killed will be able to sue somebody with money over this tragedy,
That doesn’t change the fact that this would have likely been a smaller tragedy had people paid attention to their own safety. It wasn’t their fault the stage came down, but they were less than safety concious standing out there with a storm bearing down on them.
First, I’m embarrassed as an Airplane fan that I misquoted the line. It’s Shaaaa-na, not Sheee-na.
Second, van, it already was a smaller tragedy because some people did leave. But, again, if you want to blame the fans for being less than safety-conscious, you can’t let the State Fair off the hook for being less than safety-conscious either. A similar storm blew into South Bend the same day, and before it hit, a Christian outdoor music festival pulled the plug and told everyone to go home. At Conner Prairie, 30 minutes before the storm hit, the Indianapolis Symphony Orchestra pulled the plug and told everyone to go home. Somehow all sorts of outdoor events were able to see this storm coming and take action. Hey, is it “hand-holding” that my daughter’s softball field has a siren that goes off when lightning strikes within 10 miles, so we can all safely get off the fields with the metal fences and metal bats, and seek shelter? Heck, is a tornado siren “hand-holding”?
The event organizers have the duty and responsibility to look out for the safety of their guests. There is an assumption by the fans that, indeed, that’s part of what an event organizer will do. By not doing what it appears most every event did that night, the fair put the Sugarland fans in a pickle. Do we leave, and eat the price of the ticket? Or do we stay, and figure we’ll take our chances with the weather, because clearly a show is going to happen?
The state has inoculated itself against lawsuits by placing a $5 million collective total on losses, so this isn’t about a bunch of injured people with the temerity to ask someone else to pay for their medical bills and lost time at work. It’s about the fair needing to do whatever it takes to run a thorough, independent investigation, and taking steps to correct the problem so that people trust when they go to the fair, nothing is going to fall on them. Figure the fair has already lost millions in revenue as a result of the canceled concerts and ill will. I’m basing this on what my wife and I spent when we saw a fair concert this year. We spent probably $60 on fair food and stuff, plus $30 for each ticket (including fair admission). Figure that with 40,000 (at least) not coming to fair concerts that were canceled or moved, if my wife and I are average, that’s $1.2 million in lost revenue at the fair for everything outside the grandstand, and another $1 million or so (plus costs) in refunded tickets.
That’s a lot of money and good will to lose for not doing a little hand-holding. Oh, yeah, and the loss of life of six people, too.
Excellent Seasteader’s reference, there, Doug!
I’m an architect and so pretty well-versed in life safety issues of buildings. I don’t know a whole lot about temporary structures, however. It appears – and I’ve ONLY seen the videos everyone else has, so I’m really only speculating – that the tarps flapping in the wind was what pulled the structure over. It may have been that the structure was fine but the addition of the tarps – possibly by someone without any kind of structural knowledge but with the good intention of protecting the performers from rain – caused the wind to uplift the tarps and yank the structure over.
Again, this is pure speculation, and not really adding to the liability question or the general distastefulness of searching for a deep pocket after every accident. Sometimes the events leading to tragic accidents really aren’t foreseeable, right? I do know one thing for sure, though: I was sitting reading a book one minute, and the next minute my husband said “Hmm, a storm” and the trees in my backyard were bowing over under the same heavy wind that knocked over that stage. I’ve never seen a wind kick up SO QUICKLY. I would guess an emergency plan wouldn’t have mattered in that situation.
You’re missing my point, or I’m just not being clear enough?
You are right. The State Fair has a responsibility to anticipate safety issues and make it as safe as they can for fairgoers. In fact, the State Fair will likely have some serious culpability in this case. That should make you feel better?
But, once again, my point is that a person needs to attend to their own safety to the best of their ability as well. One needs to make an individual effort to stay safe. The government can’t do it all for you.
Likely enough, we will never agree on this point, so let’s just leave it at that, OK?
I don’t know that this falls in favor of anyone in particular, but one issue is that the weather folks always seem to be hyping weather events – whether it’s out of an abundance of caution or for ratings or because we have better weather detecting technology, I don’t know. But, it makes me shrug off warnings because of the “boy who cried wolf” effect.
And, at least in my neck of the woods, the front came on like gangbusters.
The first lawsuit has now been filed in which one partner of a same-sex couple was killed and the other injured in the collapse. I haven’t seen whether or not the suit includes a claim under Indiana’s wrongful death statute. Since whether or not a plaintiff is a “spouse”, or “widow(er)” is a question involved in who may recover under the statute, the case could involve judicial decisions concerning current Indiana law which does not recognize same-sex marriages from other states. The news this morning indicates the couple recently “married” in Hawaii, but I believe Hawaii only has a civil union law.
That one sounds like it could turn into a thicket of law school final caliber legal questions.
I also would ordinarily would also find appalling the spectacle of personal injury lawyers competing to file the first lawsuit after a public tragedy. But personal injury lawyers fill the void in States like ours which have bought into the anti- regulatory and tort “reform” rhetoric of politicians like Mitch Daniels and his Republican minions. The consequences of these policies are on full display in the aftermath of this tragedy. Temporary stages we now learn are free from all regulatory measures. The State has so insulated itself from fully paying for its own negligence by legislating artificial caps on total liability and individual compensation that it self-insures itself against large-scale catastrophes. Safety measures take a back seat to profit. Same sex partners get nothing for negligence causing the loss of their loved one.